Whats going on ?

[MrAce]

Team match, playing 2/1, W/R, you are dealer.

 

xxx

Axxx

AQx

KTx

 

You open 1♣, LHO 1♥, pd doubles, RHO 4♥, it goes to partner who now bids 4NT passed to you.

 

What does pd have and what would you bid ? (nothing unusual in your 1m openings, better minor,♣ from 3-3, ♦ from 4-4 5-5, all you know is 4NT is not RKCB)

[the hog]

Pd knows you might have this holding and is looking for a playable spot. I bid 5C and will pass 5D.

[JLOGIC]

It's interesting because perhaps partner should probably "always" bid 4S rather than 4N when he's looking for a playable spot...we might have 4 spades, and he has shown exactly 4 spades (I assume). That should probably make 4N something like a good 5C bid or something exotic (enter kenrexford)

 

That said, in reality I have never seen anyone balance with 4S in this auction, I would just assume partner is like 4063 or something and was asking us to pick a minor. I would bid 5D.

 

Hog, I don't understand your point, if partner is looking for a playable spot why would you bid 5C and not 5D with 3-3 in the minors...you already opened 1C...if clubs was better than diamonds partner should bid 5C.

[wyman]

Partner is like 4063 +/- 1 card in my world. I bid 5D. [nonexpert so i hope it's still ok to post this]

[nige1]

Team match, playing 2/1, W/R, you are dealer. xxx Axxx AQx KTx.

You open 1♣, LHO 1♥, pd doubles, RHO 4♥, it goes to partner who now bids 4NT passed to you. What does pd have and what would you bid ? (nothing unusual in your 1m openings, better minor,♣ from 3-3, ♦ from 4-4 5-5, all you know is 4NT is not RKCB)

I guess partner has at least three ♠, at least ♣ tolerance and good ♦,. Something like...

♠ Qxxx ♥ - ♦ KJTxxxx ♣ Axx

Now, I reckon 5♦ = 10, Pass = 7, 6 ♦ = 6, 5♥ = 5, 5♣ = 3.

[wyman]

I guess partner has at least three ♠, good ♦, and at least ♣ tolerance. Something like...

♠ Kxxx ♥ - ♦ KJTxxxx ♣ Axx

Now, I reckon 5♦ = 10, Pass = 7, 6 ♦ = 6, 5♣ = 4

 

when i said 4063 +/1 card, i didn't mean he could have 14 :P

[JLOGIC]

With 4063 don't you agree you should be balancing with 4S routinely though?

[awm]

Seems like if partner has a good hand he might balance with double on these patterns. If partner has a poor hand and just wants to compete he can balance with 4♠. So 4NT should be forward-going. Slam try in clubs seems appropriate; he has no other way to bid that hand besides just blasting since 5♣ has a very wide range on this auction.

[wyman]

With 4063 don't you agree you should be balancing with 4S routinely though?

 

I mean it's probably right, but I'm wary of follow-ups. With what shapes does opener now bid 4N? [surely this isn't rkc] Seems like this has to be real wide ranging because can't responder have like 4054 or 4135? And, if opener rebids 5C, this should show real clubs (6+?), right?

 

So if opener has to correct to 4N with a lot, responder has to guess a lot.

[MrAce]

Pd knows you might have this holding and is looking for a playable spot. I bid 5C and will pass 5D.

 

Justin already said, you already showed 3+♣, if partner had clubs that can play at 5 level vs your 3 card, dont you think he would have bid it already ?

[MrAce]

With 4063 don't you agree you should be balancing with 4S routinely though?

 

I definetely agree with you, i just didnt have the guts to bid it at the table.

 

 

My hand was (4NT bidder)

 

KJxx

void

KT8xxx

Jxx

 

They are making 4♥ and 5♦ was not as bad as =620 (i didnt check really what wld be the outcome of 5♦. Pd bid 5♣ doubled and we played it, thanks to god defense panicked and we got away with only 3 down, lol.

 

If we agree that 4♠ is looking for right spot, and as you said that can very well be 4♠, then i also like the suggestion of Awm, 4NT similar hand forward going and probably scared to DBL with void and too much slam/grand pottential ? Or 4NT should be reserved for hands that started DBL but dont have 4 card ♠ ? (i know frequency is extremely low)

 

Kxx

Void

ATxxxx

Txxx ?

[JLOGIC]

I mean it's probably right, but I'm wary of follow-ups. With what shapes does opener now bid 4N? [surely this isn't rkc] Seems like this has to be real wide ranging because can't responder have like 4054 or 4135? And, if opener rebids 5C, this should show real clubs (6+?), right?

 

So if opener has to correct to 4N with a lot, responder has to guess a lot.

 

I think responder would always double with a stiff heart, so lets say he has a void.

 

Yes, he has a wide range of shapes. He could be 4036 even, or basically anything. Opener at least can bid 4N or 5C without going past 5C, so maybe opener should be giving his vote, but of course he might have 7 clubs himself.

 

Still, I think responder cannot reopen with 4N with 4 spades, there is just too much risk partner has 5 spades. You just have to hope to figure it out from there, I mean if you are 4063 and partner 4Ns you can 5D, and if you are 4054 you can 5C, not perfect since partner might be 4333 as here, but it is pretty reasonable and gets you to the best spot most of the time I think. I think that is better than bidding 4N sometimes for fear of getting to the wrong spot after 4S-4N-?, it is probably really important to play 4S with a 4-4 spade fit.

[kenrexford]

This is so bizarre. I mean, with most 6D/4S hands where i would want to bid at the 5-level i would start usually with 2D and then bid 4S if need be. If, however, i opt for a negative double, then backing in with 4S surely if natural is the most flexible, such that i could not really need two ways to scramble.

 

Besides, Opener has not denied four spades here. Or, is he supposed to bid 4S with a 4333 12-count? What is red on white?

[nigel_k]

4♠ is correct with no slam interest, as others have said. If I had a 4063 and enough to be interested in slam now, I would have responded 2♦ not double. Or would bid 5NT now if willing to commit to slam.

 

What is left is a hand with primary club support so 4NT is RKCB or general slam try, or whatever you normally do with 4NT when clubs are trumps.

[rmnka447]

My sense is that partner has the pointed suits (♦,♠). Partner probably doesn't have more than 4 ♠s because he would have bid 1 ♠ with 5 or more after the 1 ♥ call. Partner could also have raised ♣s with a fit there. So I'd bid 5 ♦.

[MrAce]

4♠ is correct with no slam interest, as others have said. If I had a 4063 and enough to be interested in slam now, I would have responded 2♦ not double. Or would bid 5NT now if willing to commit to slam.

 

 

Good point

[Fluffy]

already said but 4NT looks like 3064 to me, I am always picking diamonds over clubs anyway with this hand.

[phil_20686]

This looks like a club slam try to me. But I play x= four spades, and with a GF hand I would always bid 2d natural and forcing the first round, planning to show my spades later. Particularly if you have short hearts so you have an easy double later.

 

This hand doesnt seem that different to the hand I posted where partner responded 1H to 1c with x4x6, surely all those who advocated starting with 2c inverter there should advocate starting with 2d with those hands here?

 

I just hate playing styles where a GF hand doesnt start by bidding its longest suit, sadly such styles seem to be very popular in the UK. I once had the auction 1c (1h) x 4H P P x P 4S where I had some 4333 hand. partner tabled Axxx x AKxxxxxx -. Just seemed bizarre to me :S.

[phil_20686]

already said but 4NT looks like 3064 to me, I am always picking diamonds over clubs anyway with this hand.

 

I assume this is in the context of non forcing free bids? Otherwise this doesnt make any sense to me at all.

[Zelandakh]

I think 4NT here is either 4053 + 1 card (will pass our response) or a very strong hand without a heart control (will probably bid 5NT/6m next). It seems obvious to bid 5♦ on our hand over 4NT. There may also be an argument for this to be a multi-way bid for 1. Last Train for clubs; or 2. a slam try in diamonds; or 3. a very strong hand without a heart control. I suspect this would come up more than the take-out meaning but I would certainly not try it without a firm agreement. Oh yes, before someone slaps me I will add the obligatory IANAE tag.

[mikeh]

Off-topic, but this hand got me to thinking about a drawback to my current methods, in which the double of 1♥ shows 4+ spades, which allows for 1♠ to be the unbiddable hand.....say you hold Kxx xxx KQxxx Jx....what do you bid over 1♥?

 

I really like this method, but it occurred to me, on reading this thread, that reopening 4♠ on 4 is impossible.....since we could easily have 5 and even 6....although we use 2♥ as 6+ invitational, so that holding is out.

[kenrexford]

Off-topic, but this hand got me to thinking about a drawback to my current methods, in which the double of 1♥ shows 4+ spades, which allows for 1♠ to be the unbiddable hand.....say you hold Kxx xxx KQxxx Jx....what do you bid over 1♥?

 

I really like this method, but it occurred to me, on reading this thread, that reopening 4♠ on 4 is impossible.....since we could easily have 5 and even 6....although we use 2♥ as 6+ invitational, so that holding is out.

 

 

You need to quit playing that esoteric nonsense. I keep telling you tha!

[ArtK78]

Off-topic, but this hand got me to thinking about a drawback to my current methods, in which the double of 1♥ shows 4+ spades, which allows for 1♠ to be the unbiddable hand.....say you hold Kxx xxx KQxxx Jx....what do you bid over 1♥?

 

I really like this method, but it occurred to me, on reading this thread, that reopening 4♠ on 4 is impossible.....since we could easily have 5 and even 6....although we use 2♥ as 6+ invitational, so that holding is out.

You need to quit playing that esoteric nonsense. I keep telling you tha!

That is funny, even without the final "t"!

[benlessard]

IMO any hand with 4S will balance with 4S, its a expert standard Imo that denying a 5 cd suit and bidding it is takeout.

 

1Nt--(P)--P--(2D)

P---(p)--??

 

2H is takeout, X is dsip or penalty.

 

 

So for me cannot have 4S hes either 3064 or slammish with clubs. For frequency i prefer slammish with clubs but my default agreement lead me to take it as 3064.

 

Of course this is off if the X show 4 or more S (my fav method)

[lalldonn]

1Nt--(P)--P--(2D)

P---(p)--??

 

2H is takeout, X is dsip or penalty.

I would take X as takeout, 2H as hearts and another place to play (generally either 4-4 majors or 4 hearts - 5 clubs).