Multi Landy and ML openings?

[Fluffy]

2♣ majors, 2♦ 6crd M, 2♥/♠ 5M/4m

 

One of my students overcalled 2♥ on 3523 last weeked because he only had 5♥.... I know you are smarter than him, but just in case, don't take definitions literarilly, 2♦ overcall could be made on 5 card major hand that wants to overcall for some reason, or on 7 card hand not worth the 3 level preempt, so it shows only 1 place to play (a major), nothing about lenght.

[gwnn]

I don't see how

so it shows only 1 place to play (a major), nothing about lenght.

follows from this:

 

2♦ overcall could be made on 5 card major hand that wants to overcall for some reason, or on 7 card hand not worth the 3 level preempt,

Most of the time you will have 6 cards, sometimes 5, sometimes 7. Surely this means that "usually/most often/almost surely 6" is a better description than "says nothing about length".

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9hj53daqj987ct96&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1n?]133|200[/hv]

 

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,

is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

[mgoetze]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9hj53daqj987ct96&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1n?]133|200[/hv]

 

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,

is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

 

Auto at MP, marginal at IMPs.

[the hog]

[hv=pc=n&s=s9hj53daqj987ct96&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1n?]133|200[/hv]

 

Playing multi-landy where 2♦=single suit 6 card M and 3♣/3♦= 6 card minor,

is this an auotmatic 3♦, marginal or a pass?

 

Pass at both of course. Look at the rubbish you have outside.

[mycroft]

Jillybean: this is a legal Mid-Chart convention with no defence required and no minimum boards-per-round. You do have to PreAlert it, however. You can play it any time you can play the Mid-Chart (for you, probably any "separate Flight A" (so StratiFlighted games) and "high enough" brackets of KOs (which you probably would not get into).

 

I expect this to change in a few years as we continue to rethink COMPETITIVE, 7b. I've never understood why they changed this one in the first place, frankly.

[bluecalm]

Anybody willing to play Multi 2♦(or two-suited 2-openings) should read

the following article by Pietro Campanile. It gives something to think about.

This guy has done statistical analysis of Bermuda Bowl, European Championships

and Olympics and laid down the question: does Multi really work against weak two's?

 

It's obvious to anyone who ever played multi that it's inferior to weak twos.

The point is to free 2M openings for other uses though. I think 2M as 5-5 this major and a minor are very good openings although a bit rare.

2H as hearts and other is imo worse, you lose spades too often in hands which belongs to you.

 

I don't know what your defences include but they sound pretty bad to me.

 

This is defense is standard in Poland against both multi and Wilkosz for beginners, experts and pros:

-pass = either normal or t/o to hearts

-double = t/o to spades

-other = natural

 

This is simple, effective and imo better than all fancy stuff people come up with. It also survived the test of time in a country where almost everybody play either multi or Wilkosz (and Wilkosz is still non-alertable use for 2D as it's considered standard, especially by older generation of players).

 

Analysis is interesting but why does the minimulti do well and the multi does not?

 

Besides merits of both conventions mini-multi tends to be played by better players than multivariant multi.

Meckwell played mini-multi, Balicki-Zmudzinski and other Polish pairs play mini-multi and they probably make up for imps donated by weakier pairs playing multi variant multi.

 

As an offtopic I will add that this is pathetic that ACBL forbids multi and that very good players sometimes speak in defense of that policy because supposedly multi is hard to defense. As mentioned before most middle aged and older people here play Wilkosz, people defend it against all the time and nobody complains. Same goes for multi, it's not hard to defend against, it's easy. You are be better off if opponents play multi than you would be if they played weak-twos on those hands applying very simple natural defense and just using your brain.

It's just matter of being used to thinking and accepting that some openings introduce some variance to results.

[mgoetze]

This is defense is standard in Poland against both multi and Wilkosz for beginners, experts and pros:

-pass = either normal or t/o to hearts

-double = t/o to spades

-other = natural

 

This is simple, effective and imo better than all fancy stuff people come up with.

Well, I am not talking about fancy stuff, I just prefer to bid 2♥ immediately with t/o of hearts.

[bluecalm]

Well, I am not talking about fancy stuff, I just prefer to bid 2♥ immediately with t/o of hearts.

 

So you are losing natural 2H overcall I suppose ?

This is one of the biggest flaw of multi, it gives you a chance to overcall 2H on hands where other people would open 2S taking that option away. Imo giving up natural way to exploit it is not the way to go.

Also pass with t/o to hearts has some advantages, you often get them if it goes:

 

2D - pass - 2H pass

2S - dbl = penalty

[mgoetze]

Also pass with t/o to hearts has some advantages, you often get them if it goes:

 

2D - pass - 2H pass

2S - dbl = penalty

 

Sure, you just have to weigh this against the disadvantages when it goes

 

2D - pass - 3S - pass

4H

 

or whatever. I am of course open to being persuaded by statistical arguments here - but maybe you should dig up one of the old threads on how to best defend the multi if you have those.

[jillybean]

Jillybean: this is a legal Mid-Chart convention with no defence required and no minimum boards-per-round. You do have to PreAlert it, however. You can play it any time you can play the Mid-Chart (for you, probably any "separate Flight A" (so StratiFlighted games) and "high enough" brackets of KOs (which you probably would not get into).

 

I expect this to change in a few years as we continue to rethink COMPETITIVE, 7b. I've never understood why they changed this one in the first place, frankly.

Thanks, good to know where it is legal and that it might change in the future. I have 200 monster points. Other than when I am playing with a flight A partner or I can convince other partners to play in A/X games, I won't legally be playing much of this. otoh, is it legal in A/X?

[mycroft]

It's legal wherever Mid-Chart is legal. In your district, *I'm pretty sure*, Midchart is legal in any separate flight A game and in the top KO bracket. But check with your TDs at the tournament - Matt, if he's there, but any of them should be able to tell you.