fantoni-nunes system

[pbleighton]

Gerben -

 

When you played the system -

 

1) Did you use an artificial relay system after 2x, or did you just use 2NT as GF, "bid again, partner"?

 

2) The 10-13 range for 2x - what did you pass and what did you open? Would you open all 13 counts regardless of primary suit quality and vulnerability? What did you open at 10 hcp?

 

3) How did you handle opening 4441s 2m - apart from hoping it didn't come up :)

 

Peter

[Gerben47]

Peter, as I said it wasn't easy to fill in the blanks.

 

1) After the 2x we used the same bids as relay as F-N, i.e.

2♦ over 2♣, 2NT over 2♦ and 2♠ and 2♠ over 2♥. So only the 2♦ opening bid has a bit of a space problem, the others have a lot of space. Basically we ask for a 4-card major, a 6th card in the bid suit and min/max.

There is some danger missing a game in a side suit after these opening bids. We might bid 2♣ pass pass pass and others bid 1♣ 1♠ 2♠ 4♠. On the other hands these bids come up very often and put your opponents under a lot of pressure and give more definition to the 1-bids. I guess that's worth it.

 

2) 12/13 counts: open all of them, for 10/11 counts perhaps reconsider with awkward hands like hands with 5 small in the opening suit. In 3rd seat we bid more freely. Another problem is 5-5 majors. I have noticed that F-N tend to pass these. And probably for the best as now the odds of missing a game in the other major is large.

 

3) We pass 4441 hands in the 10-13 HCP range. Maybe I'd open 1NT if I can't stand it though but I have not had a 13-count 4441 with singleton minor yet.

 

Gerben

[Chamaco]

Is it possible to play a Fantunes-like system by simply playing a version of Kaplan-Sheinwold (weak NT, sound minor opening, 5cM) which uses F-N intermediate 2 openings (and forcing 1 level openigns) ?

 

How much do you rate this would lose the effectivenes of F-N but be easier to remember for the average nonprofessional human being ?

[pbleighton]

"Is it possible to play a Fantunes-like system by simply playing a version of Kaplan-Sheinwold (weak NT, sound minor opening, 5cM) which uses F-N intermediate 2 openings ?"

 

My thinking exactly, except of course that major openings would be sound, too, which I think you meant.

 

Perhaps bring the 1 bids down a point, to 13 (11) unbalanced, and keep 2C as strong, and have 2D/2H/2S as intermediate bids. Pass a lot of unbalanced natural 12 count club openers, open the better ones, upgrading a little more freely than you would with 12 counts in the other suits.

 

1x would then be strong but non forcing (you might respond with 4), and the intermediate bids would be 10(9)-12, a little tighter.

 

This way I would get to keep my 10-13 NT NV :)

 

Peter

[Chamaco]

Perhaps bring the 1 bids down a point, to 13 (11) unbalanced, and keep 2C as strong,

 

Nah, the big plus of F-N is removing the terrible strong 2C while avoiding the preemption suffered by strong club openings.

To do that, we need a *sound* 1-level forcing opening, e.g. 14+ hcp OR at most 6 losers if holding an unbalanced hand with less than 14 hcp.

 

In my post I meant the following:

 

is it possible to use a K-S system development for 1 level opening (forcing) and a F-N system for 2-level openings ?

 

Basically that would mean avoiding the F-N relays altogether and:

- respnding naturally a la K-S over the 1-lvel forcing opening,

- responding natually to the "intermediate 2" with a scheme analogous to the weak 2 openings.

 

Using such hybrid scheme do we lose much compared to the gain in simplicity and memory burden ?

[Gerben47]

Yes it's a great advantage. In the tournament we had two SGF or better hands and both were solved by simple natural bidding to reach the top contract, for 17 and 15 of 18 MP respectively.

[pbleighton]

"Basically that would mean avoiding the F-N relays altogether and:

- respnding naturally a la K-S over the 1-lvel forcing opening,

- responding natually to the "intermediate 2" with a scheme analogous to the weak 2 openings."

 

Not sure which relays you are talking about

 

1) 1 level - do you mean that 1x-1y would no longer be 0-9, as in F-N (where 1x-2y is GF), but 1x-1y is unlimited and forcing? Their cc doesn't mention relays after 1 bids. What do you have in mind? F-N has some artificial responses, especially after 1C, but I assume bidding is natural after the response.

 

Do you just mean using better minor instead of 1C having all of the balanced hands with no 5cM? I think that would be fine.

 

If you keep 1x-1y as 0-9, then if all reponses are natural, does 1D-2S promise only 4? This would be a problem for reponding with 6 card suits.

 

How about: if 2 level responses show 5, then 2NT would be 4333 or 4432 or trump support, and with 4441s you bid the singleton at the 3 level. Or you can use F-N, where 1S-2C is clubs or balanced or supporting spades. I do think you are going to have a little structure in the responses, but bidding can be natural after that.

 

2) They do have relays after 2x, but I think Gerben's scheme of a "relay" bid, i.e. 2S-2NT, which just asks opener to rebid naturally, and is GF, is fine for those of us below World Class level :) A new suit, i.e. 2S-3D, would be natural and GF.

 

Peter

[Chamaco]

1) 1 level - do you mean that 1x-1y would no longer be 0-9, as in F-N (where 1x-2y is GF), but 1x-1y is unlimited and forcing?

 

Ye, 1x-1y unlimited and forcing, just as in KS or any natural system.

Not the best system possible, but has the great advantage of keeping naturality and avoiding memorizing relay responses.

 

2) They do have relays after 2x, but I think Gerben's scheme of a "relay" bid, i.e. 2S-2NT, which just asks opener to rebid naturally, and is GF, is fine for those of us below World Class level  :)  A new suit, i.e. 2S-3D, would be natural and GF.

 

Yes, that is what I meant, that is more or less the standard over a weak 2 opening, so nothing new to meorize for most people used to traditional weak 2s :-)

 

I repeat, the main point is to avoid relays (not because they are bad but because -at least for my partners - they are difficult to remember and psychologically hard to accept)

[Gerben47]

You can use your favorite scheme after 1M, except that 1♥ - 2♠ must be free for GF hands with ♠.

[Chamaco]

You can use your favorite scheme after 1M, except that 1♥ - 2♠ must be free for GF hands with ♠.

Can u use

- 1H-2S as strong JS and

- 1H-1S, forcing 1 Round, 4+ S, unlimted ?

 

Any problems with this ?

[Gerben47]

Probably yes, I have not seen any case where they passed out 1red - 1higher suit. The problem is if partner can have as much as 9 and you have 14 unbalanced then either you might have a good fit or you would not like to play in that specific suit in the first place.

 

Gerben

[pbleighton]

Chamaco -

 

If you play 1H-1S as unlimited, when the auction goes 1H-1S-3C, what does 3C promise? How about 1H-1S-2NT?

 

Gerben - what does these auctions promise when 1H-1S is limited to 9 hcp?

 

Peter

[Gerben47]

Opener bids as if he was playing a standard system and makes the bid he would make if he would remove a king from his hand.

 

1H - 1S - 3C shows a BIG 2-suiter, for example

 

x

AKJxx

Kx

AKQxx

 

2NT and 3H can be used to sort out the BW Death hand (too strong for a NF bid and 3-card support)

[Chamaco]

Chamaco -

 

If you play 1H-1S as unlimited, when the auction goes 1H-1S-3C, what does 3C promise? How about 1H-1S-2NT?

1H-1S

3C = natural, distributional reverse (usually 55, and about 5.5 losers), but not lots of hcp, non forcing opposite a yarborough.

 

Big hands will go via 2C artificial rebid, which wil be 2-way showing either:

- minimum with clubs or

- 16+

 

Responder bids 2D with any 8+ hand, bypasses 2D making a weak bid (prefernce to pener or suit rebid) when holding less than 8 hcp.

 

----

1H-1S

2NT

 

can be played as strong support for spades (usually with side singleton or with extra hcp).

This is better that having to show good support at higher level because 1S response may have a yarborough.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an altrnative it is possible to play the Kaplan inversion of 1NT forcing and 1S:

 

1H-1S is forcing one round and denies 5 cards in spades. If opener now now bids 1NT he shows 4 spades.

 

1H:1NT shows 5+ spades

[pbleighton]

Gerben -

 

Will you be putting your version of F-N on your website :)

 

Peter

[pbleighton]

Chamaco writes:

"Big hands will go via 2C artificial rebid, which wil be 2-way showing either:

- minimum with clubs or

- 16+

 

Responder bids 2D with any 8+ hand, bypasses 2D making a weak bid (prefernce to pener or suit rebid) when holding less than 8 hcp."

 

Don't you need to revise the point count here to something like the strong option being 20+ and the conditionally GF 2D responder bid being 5+?

 

Peter

[Chamaco]

Don't you need to revise the point count here to something like the strong option being 20+ and the conditionally GF 2D responder bid being 5+?

My view is that if opener has a semiGF hand he will keep bidding open after the weak rebid by responder (<8 hcp).

 

Eg

1H:1S

2C (2-way) :2S (natural signoff, < 8 hcp)

?

 

Something like:

2NT: strong (semi) balanced, 20+

3C/3H: natural offer of signoff , no spade tolerance

3D: (4sf, keeps bidding open opposite a weak hand, promises a semigf hand)

3S: invitational, if responder is alive he shd bid on.

[PrecisionL]

In a recent tournament I played that system and it is not completely trivial to fill in the blanks.For example: How do you continue after 1♣ - weak response? What do you do with the 18-20 balanced hand? (1♣ - 1x - 1NT = 15 - 17 balanced)

Balanced 19-20 hands open 1♣ and rebid 2NT. The 1NT rebid is 15-18.

 

Unbalanced hands with 4+♦ and 18+ hcp open 1♦. According to Bill Jacobs' book: Fantunes Revealed, 2012.

 

 

Edited: 7/6/17 Nightmare uses 1♦ - 1Y - 1NT for the balanced 18-20 hcp hand (1♦ is forcing with 4+♦ & 15+ HCP).