junyi_zhu Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Wow - I can't resist. :D Per Jun-yi: Well, is this USA team the best of the world? I really doubt so. Even China's teamalmost blitzed them at round robin stage.___________________________________________ I think you can look at a lot of the RR results and draw a lot of erroneous conclusions. The fact that China had a good match with them over 20 boards doesn't mean squat. See how they do over 120 and call me. ___________________________________________ Also, two copies of myself mean no misunderstandings in bidding and defensivesignals, that's a huge edge. You lose a match usually not because opps playtoo well, usually because you have had too many misunderstandings in your partnership.___________________________________________ Hogwash! If you have ever practiced with your favorite partner, he is making a call looking at his own hand. You make calls looking at your hand. Whenever my pard and I have a mix-up, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "Your interpretation looks correct from YOUR side". So, just becuase you are bidding with a clone of yourself doesn't mean that you are immune to misunderstandings. Even Meckwell has bidding misunderstandings; its impossible, not to mention impractical to have agreements for every conceivable situation. ___________________________________________ The third thing, I have probably the one of the best 2/1 systems in the world. ___________________________________________ I will look forward to the book with interest. :blink: ___________________________________________ The last thing, I might not be the best now, but who knows in ten or twentry years what will hapeen.___________________________________________ Well, I hope you get involved in cloning research, since you will need a team of 5 copies of yourself to accomplish this, because, with this attitude, you rate to have a tough time getting teammates. ___________________________________________ Still, they win many events doesn't mean their system is superio. ___________________________________________ I'd say winning an Olympiad is about the only proof I need. ___________________________________________ If a system has many holes, it can't last long in my humble opinion. ___________________________________________ You and I sure have a different idea about what 'humble' means. :o Well, your words may sound insulting to some people, but I don't mind them at all. All I want to say is to present my thoughts in a neutral way, even when I talked about myself. I never had an implication that I am strong, I am smart, my partners or teammates are not so good. in that sense, cloning doesn't help either, because environment changes people a lot. All I want to say is that everybody can reach to the top of the level if they work hard and minimize their partnership misunderstandings if they treat their partners as themselves. Still the last thing I want to present is that a team of 4 consisting only B/D, L/V can probably win those things as well. If you take the matter this way, you would pretty much understand what I was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 I can't resist either: The USA could have sent a great team to the Olympiad but they didn't send their best team (their unwillingness to go to Istanbul is a big chunk in the minus column for me). If you don't send the best team, although still stronger almost all of the other teams, it is not very surprising that other top nations that DO send their best team do better. I think it is good that others get a chance as well (albeit for the wrong reasons) but then don't come and say they are the best team in the world as they are not the best team in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 17, 2004 Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2004 The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy. If if if, blablabla... I know all about if-structures: they usually have a "then" and an "else". In all these hypothetical statements, all I read is "ELSE nothing special happened". If the "then" is never applicable, why waste your time with it anyway? :blink: If we played bidding systems we play now 40 years ago, we'd win all events. So what? B) If the USA had beaten Italy ... but they DIDN'T! Live with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 huh? free your post is 100 % invalid since its not even relevant to the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 "The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy." That is insulting to the rest of the world. Are you campaigning for a job in the State Department B) Peter (U.S.A.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 "The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy." That is insulting to the rest of the world. Are you campaigning for a job in the State Department B) Peter (U.S.A.) I don't think its insulting at all, I think its factual. Would you have taken 1:3 odds that either Italy or the US would win? I would. This has nothing to do with nationalism, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 yeah yeah not very politically correct or diplomatic whatever. Take offense if u like, or just consider facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Pclayton, I'd take 1:3 with Italy alone if you would like to throw in a second country, fine with me :D Justin, now don't get into this 'The USA is the best country in the world' stuff.' No one believes that anyway. I guess only in the USA people realized it was between them and the Italians. This might have been true had their strongest lineup played. But as you know they were unwilling to play in Istanbul which is a very safe place unless you are an English soccer fan. As it was the players on the team were among the best of the world, but guess what: so were some other teams! Had the USA beaten the Italians I think my list of favorites would be a close tie between 3 teams: * China (It's not just in economy they will overtake everyone, it seems in bridge as well)* Netherlands (they beat Italy in the Round Robin, perhaps they can keep Italy from taking a 7th European Title in a row?)* USA (Even without Meckwell and co. they are a great team) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 yes clearly my view is that USA is the best country in the world and that we rule and EVERY OTHER COUNTRY drools. that is definitely what i said. good job. Now perhaps you dont realize the opposite is true, you are very anti-american (i know this from the e2025 forums), and do not like to acknowledge that perhaps we had a team better than other non-italian teams. You may not realize but on average europeans are much more anti-american than americans are anti-european. Im done with this thread, its a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 "yeah yeah not very politically correct or diplomatic whatever. Take offense if u like, or just consider facts." Then "Now perhaps you dont realize the opposite is true, you are very anti-american (i know this from the e2025 forums), and do not like to acknowledge that perhaps we had a team better than other non-italian teams. You may not realize but on average europeans are much more anti-american than americans are anti-european. Im done with this thread, its a joke." Exit the Ugly American, who took offense. Peter (U.S.A.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrShoham Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Uhm. After having read through the entire thread.. does anyone actually have the notes to the F-N system? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 Well, here is a link to their convention card and wbf notes. But this is not what this thread is asking for. Fantoni-Nunes As to their playing ability raised earlier. Their Butler score was by far and away the best on a very good italian team, and I think the highest in the 2004 olympiad. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 In a recent tournament I played that system and it is not completely trivial to fill in the blanks.For example: How do you continue after 1♣ - weak response? What do you do with the 18-20 balanced hand? (1♣ - 1x - 1NT = 15 - 17 balanced) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 This thread has been reopened. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 USA is great but sometimes they get inlove with themselfs which is kind of funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 USA is great but sometimes they get inlove with themselfs which is kind of funny. WTF is the connection between this post and the thread?? :D Isn't it enough your silly off-topic posts were deleted, and that MY thread was closed because of you silly boys?? :blink: Stop it ok!?! And if you realy realy realyyyyyyyy want to have a last word in this ridiculous discussion about nations, start a new thread, but don't abuse mine! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 USA is great but sometimes they get inlove with themselfs which is kind of funny. WTF is the connection between this post and the thread?? :D Isn't it enough your silly off-topic posts were deleted, and that MY thread was closed because of you silly boys?? :blink: Stop it ok!?! And if you realy realy realyyyyyyyy want to have a last word in this ridiculous discussion about nations, start a new thread, but don't abuse mine! B) Ouch Free sry to make you angry like this.I was saying something related to what other ppl said here, my post is not against anyone its more like a peace making post then anything else.true it got nothing to do with the thread title but sometimes threads changes their topic, anyway sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junyi_zhu Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 The team we sent included some of the best players in the world. Gerben, if USA had beaten italy would they not be the overwhelming favorites to win the whole thing? I think most people realized early on it was between USA and Italy. Well, I feel this Italy team wasn't in its best shape although they won. As far as I have seen, the overall quality of the game wasn't very high comparing with their performance in late nineties, although they didn't win a world title at that time, their bridge was better I feel. Another thing I want to mention is that this pair has been considered as the third pair since they joined the team. Their overall performance was not bad, their card play has been good, but does that mean their bidding system is superior? I really doubt so. Still, nobody answered me from bridge logic so far. Do you think what I mentioned were holes of their system? Do you think they are fixable in their current frame work? I highly doubt so. You may not meet many 4-4-4-1 shape with about 12 HCP, but when you meet them, you would be in a worse position if you play their system. These holes may not show in a near future, however in a long run, if you have such kind of holes in your system, they will affect the overall performance a lot in your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 I can't really comment on their system, because I don't know it well enough to make judgements. Looking at one set of bids and saying, see big hole here, is not enough to judge the whole thing. I can look at the results, and they have EXTREMELY OUTSTANDING results, so my judgement is their system must be quite alright. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 22, 2004 Report Share Posted November 22, 2004 They play a very unique system and therefore it make sense that some "easy" games reached by normal system will be missed by their system, this doesnt mean the system is bad because they might win more "not easy" contracts which normal system miss.So to mesure the effective of this system you shouldnt give weight to how easy was the game they missed , you just need to count the imps the system gain/lose and so far if i understand correctly it win more then it loses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 I find their system (at least the outlines, which I guess is all that is publicly available) to be fascinating. I prefer light one bids, but they have got me thinking - it is in a way a very disciplined system - very sound one bids coupled with aggressive but narrowly defined (in terms of hand strength) two bids. To look at it another way, what should be good slam bidding (because of the low requirement for game forcing bids), plus aggressive, in-your-face part score aggression (the two bids and weak NT). All this validated by excellent results at the top level. I hope more top pairs start playing this style, so we can learn more about it. As an aside, I wonder how their results compare when they are NV versus vulnerable? Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 The more I look at this system, the more I like it. I like the feel of the two level openings especially, and the 1♣ opening doesn't seem to be too overloaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Fantoni was commentating Vugraph yesterday and there were some questions about his system. He said that first they started to play the Lauria - Versace system but they thought it was too complicated, and that what they play now is more fun to play. They do use a lot of the same conventions as L - V. Having tested the system in a real F2F tournament I was surprised how well it works. The slam bidding was more accurate than in most system. The 2-bids give the opponents many problems and opener's partner is very well placed to use the red card. And in fact the 2-bids are more frequent than the classical weak twos. There are some situations where we had a tough judgement decision after the 2-bids, but those were for very close games which no one would argue about if you would miss them (except Walddk perhaps who likes them thin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 FN looks very much like EHAA with a more disciplined two bid, five card majors and a bit of science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.