On different wavelengths

[ahydra]

Matchpoints, both sides nonvul. Playing weak NT and 4cM.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skt32hak986d953c8&n=sa965h4dqj8762cjt&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1h2cd3c3spp4cpp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Here's what we were both thinking after the hand. Clearly we are not on the same wavelength here...

 

North: "hmm, unlucky -1 here. Bad score though because they can't make 4C"

South: "ugh, partner, why did you have to raise to 4? I was merely competing"

North: "don't like my defensive prospects against 4C - also, you have probably only one club, I've got a 6-4, and the way I play 3S there you've shown extras... wait, what, you opened a 10-count?!"

South: "yea, got both majors and a nice shape, both nonvul so need to compete for the partscore"

 

I dived into Robson and Segal's "Partnership Bidding at Bridge - the contested auction" and found a couple of references to similar auctions where they recommend using Lebensohl to show a weak hand and a direct bid would be stronger. But if you're not playing that (and besides, the opps went to 3C already), do you take 3S as merely competitive or does it show extras (about an ace more than South had here)? Any other comments on the auction (would you open South, would you X with North?)

 

As a related question, I notice people are now playing the X in an auction like 1H-(p)-1S-(2C)-X as just competitive even with minimum values, not showing a strong-NT-type hand like I was originally taught. In that case, what kind of hand would pass rather than X here? I always thought one should pass if they don't really have anything new to say.

 

Thanks,

 

ahydra

[MickyB]

In this situation, where X promised four spades, South has to bid 3♠. Partner presumably doesn't have great clubs so it can't be right to defend 3♣. With an ace more you'd be worth 4♠.

 

I don't like North's bidding much, you are on lead with a stiff in partner's suit, why do you think you're not beating this? Any time pard has the ace of hearts you'll take the first four tricks, and even if he doesn't, opps don't rate to have many tricks outside of trumps. Looks like a double to me.

[ArtK78]

First, if I were to open the South hand in third seat, I would open 2♥, because I don't want partner thinking that I have a full opener. As they say on commercials where dangerous activity is shown, this comes with the disclaimer "Professional bridge players. Don't try this at home!"

 

Having opened 1♥ and hearing the rest of the auction that came back to me at 3♣, I would pass. 3♠, in addition to showing 4 spades, clearly shows a GOOD hand. It is not just competitive. I can understand why partner carried on to 4♠, but that is also not clear. Opener showed hearts and spades, and you have diamonds and spades. Clearly, the opps have the clubs (duh!), but where are they getting tricks? Doubling 4♣ with the North hand is not unreasonable opposite a strong hand with the majors. You may even get 500.

 

But the primary fault is with South for bidding a 10 count like a 17 count.

[Cyberyeti]

You're onto a bad board here unless you can X 4♣, and I don't see either hand doing this unless you have a misunderstanding and one partner bids its 10 count like a 17 count. Now hang on ...

 

Edit: we defended 4♣ which is nailed on -2 against 140 so you have to X it for any sort of score.

[mike777]

this looks like a really tough deal.

cant 3s be beaten?

[MickyB]

this looks like a really tough deal.

cant 3s be beaten?

 

No, stiff KD and Jxx spade with East, so if declarer plays on diamonds before drawing trumps he's fine.

[sasioc]

South is second in hand, not third in hand.

 

I hate 2♥ as an opening - you are far too playable in spades, even if you actually were third in hand. Many people would not open that at all in second seat but I would open 1♥ (however, my partner and I have the agreed style of opening very light, especially with a five card major). Given that the hand has been opened I think 3♠ is fairly normal and I do not think it shows extras, just a hand that thinks it is not right to defend 3♣.

 

As Mickyb says, I think the stiff heart says you really do want to defend 4♣ on this deal. Where do you think oppo are going to get ten tricks from? Of course, if you think p has actually shown interest in game you might well make it but if p has extras they could also be going for 500. Double because it's pairs, you don't think it's making and you may well be protecting a plus score (or a game bonus if you think p has values). When you do so, partner will not expect a monster trump stack from you.

 

Regarding your last question, lots of people play support doubles in this type of auction. If you don't play those (as I've been told you shouldn't if you play weak NT) you would normally bid with support for partner or a second suit so double doesn't feel like it should show shortage. Seems logical for it to be a strong NT.

[ArtK78]

I guess I saw the South hand and assumed that it was a third seat opener.

 

Why are we opening this hand? Unless you and your partner have agreed to open light in this position and vulnerability (and I do open this hand with one partner playing a light opening system) this is a clear pass. Having opened, it is an ABSOLUTE pass over 3♣.

[mikeh]

I agree with the opening, just. For once I regret not playing flannery!

 

However, I strongly disagree with 3♠. We would bid 3♠ with some 4=5=2=2 14 counts, or even better, since partner didn't promise the moon with his double...we can't go jumping to no-play games merely because RHO took away our ability to jump to 3♠ to show invitational values.

 

When the opps take away a level of bidding space, we need to be a little more aggressive....but we don't need to exaggerate our strength to this degree. We are relieved that we have a fit, since it justifies our opening decision, but we still have a rock-bottom minimum in terms of hcp...we have less than partner will expect for 3♠ even under pressure.

 

Now, if for some reason, partner was barred from bidding should we pass, we'd have to bid 3♠. But he isn't.

 

And double by him, of 3♣, is card-showing, with an expectation that we will bid more often than we will pass. So we can sensibly pass: if we belong at the 3-level, given our scant values, the odds are fairly good that partner can act, and now we can show our spades.

 

Admittedly this isn't perfect....there will be hands on which this approach will mean the opps have preempted us out of our 3♠ contract. But not on this one, surely? Doesn't N have an easy 3♦ reopening? Which gets us to 3♠.

 

Of course, the real problem is that the opps bid to 4♣ and I don't see how either N or S has a clear double.....if they double, it would, in my view, be a matchpoint double based on the idea that we were looking at 140 and we need to protect the score....at imps, who cares about 100 v 140, or 50 v 100, while the occasional 510 is a significant adverse swing.

[ahydra]

Interesting that Cyberyeti, MickyB know the hand - are either/both of you from the Herts area, or are the hands the same throughout the country for the National Pairs?

 

ahydra

[sasioc]

They are the same throughout the country

[MickyB]

I think those passing 3♣ are undervaluing the hand and overestimating our matchpoint score for defending 3♣.

[ArtK78]

I think those passing 3♣ are undervaluing the hand and overestimating our matchpoint score for defending 3♣.

Just because you pass 3♣ doesn't mean that the auction is over. Partner heard you open the bidding. You just can't afford to take a call on the 3 level on a hand that you perhaps shouldn't have opened in the first place.

[mikeh]

I think those passing 3♣ are undervaluing the hand and overestimating our matchpoint score for defending 3♣.

And I think those bidding directly over 3♣ are underestimating their partner's ability to reopen, while also underestimating the risk that partner will get too excited.....but either approach will succeed some of the time, and I'd rate the chances of a bad result from bidding as only slightly greater than those of a bad result from passing. The actual hand is but a single datum, and (as it happens) the final outcome was basically independent of our decision, so even that single datum is of no value.

[P_Marlowe]

The question to ask North - what add. information made your hand stronger.

 

In the end -1 undoubled, was better than -1 doubled, and this is certainly

an auction that screams, "we want to present you with a huge present".

-1 doubled green, is still less than a partial, but -2 double may be more

than anyone would be able to achieve.

 

North argument - the way I play 3S is showing add. values is ...,

why did he not raise 3S to 4S in the first place.

He did not like the devensive prospects, holding JT oppossite a partner,

who showed add. values?

I would send North to a logic training. And if this showes no success, he

gets a one way ticket whereever he is coming from.

 

If the South hand is an opeing, the partnership needs to discuss.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Bidding 3S over 3C is only sensible, if the X guranteed 4 spades,

which I doubt, sometimes a neg. X in this position happens with a bal.

hand, what will North bid with 4432 and 12 HCP, no club stopper?

For all South knowes, he may go to the 3 level finding a 7 card fit.

 

But of course, this depends on add. agreements, which may or may not

be on board.

[neilkaz]

Hmm..South bid twice with a hand that many people would pass twice. I don't mind opening, but after that it really is minumum. North should expect 4♣ to no make if South has his 3♠ bid, but it doesn't seem unreasonably to then expect 4♠ to have decent chances.

 

South should pass on his 2nd turn and then North may be able to reopen if it is passed around to him.

[Cyberyeti]

Interesting that Cyberyeti, MickyB know the hand - are either/both of you from the Herts area, or are the hands the same throughout the country for the National Pairs?

 

ahydra

They're the same through the country, but I guess we were both playing at Peterborough, we had almost no chance, we had to deal with 4♣ rather than 3♣.

[wank]

I don't understand opening and then passing 3♣ when the bidding has proceeded pretty much perfectly for you. That's basically saying that is was silly to open in the first place (which it is unless you're playing a system designed to handle light openers, which I'm sure the OP does not).

[mikeh]

I don't understand opening and then passing 3♣ when the bidding has proceeded pretty much perfectly for you. That's basically saying that is was silly to open in the first place (which it is unless you're playing a system designed to handle light openers, which I'm sure the OP does not).

Would you have bid 3♠ if rho had passed the double?

 

I didn't think so.

 

So are you saying that you MUST bid 3♠ over the 3♣ on all hands with 4 card support with which you would have bid 2♠ absent the double? Why is that?

 

Do you then have to bid 4♠ with all hands on which you would have bid 3♠ had RHO passed? Do you not see a problem with that?

 

If the answer is that you have to bid 3♠ with all fits and bid 4♠ with all fits that would have jumped to 3♠, you will get too high far too often, and not just at the 3 and 4 level, since partner is allowed, I hope, to play you for some values when you bid. If you expand the 3♠ range, to avoid leaping to game, you put far too much pressure on partner, who has to have his guessing boots on.

 

Doesn't your partner have rights (to reopen), or do you make all the decisions in your partnership?

 

Do you think I am asking too many questions? :P

[awm]

Agree with Mikeh completely here.

 

A lot of folks have the misimpression that they must raise to three in competition on hands normally worth only a raise to two. Another recent example from these forums was 1m-p-1h-2s and opener bidding 3h on a dead min. The problem with this is that it leaves partner on way too much of a guess whether to bid game (or slam).

 

Its true that by passing you sometimes wind up defending when you'd do better to compete. But this is rare, and even when it happens usually opener bidding would elicit a game bid from partner and a bad result!

[nigel_k]

The South hand is not an opening bid for me, though it is close. However I agree with 3♠. I might pass a minimum with four spades but not including a stiff club.

 

The main problem is that North did too much, especially when partner bid under pressure and it's matchpoints.

[mike777]

No, stiff KD and Jxx spade with East, so if declarer plays on diamonds before drawing trumps he's fine.

 

 

hmm so keep forcing with clubs will not work then?

 

anyway seems like a tough hand all around, far from easy in bidding or play.

[655321]

I agree completely with wank and disagree with mikeh.

 

I would only open this hand w/r, although I don't actually hate the opening. But having opened, we have a singleton in the suit the opponents have bid and raised, and we have 4 spades, bidding 3♠ seems completely obvious to me. Passing because we are ashamed of having opened, with the plan of blaming poor partner for passing out 3♣ with his club length, doesn't make sense to me.

[MrAce]

To open or not is debateable i understand. I dont understand not bidding 3♠ once you open.

 

I see people who argues that bidding 3♠ here requires extras. I am pretty sure same people will argue that pd needs extras too to make a 2nd DBL at 3 level. Thus to reply their argument about trusting pd to balance, my answer is; NO i dont really think that my pd can balance with a lot of hands where we needed to compete.

 

AQxx

x

Jxxxx

Jxx

 

Do we really expect pd to make another DBL with these type of hands ? I dont. He is not even aware that we have a fit, he thinks his hand is happy in defending 3♣ with holding a stiff in my suit.

 

And i am not even mentioning the hands where he can hold 5 card ♠ that wasnt strong enough to start with 2♠, such as (actually i just mentioned :P )

 

AJTxx

xx

Qxxx

xx

 

 

 

North: "hmm, unlucky -1 here. Bad score though because they can't make 4C"

South: "ugh, partner, why did you have to raise to 4? I was merely competing"

North: "don't like my defensive prospects against 4C - also, you have probably only one club, I've got a 6-4, and the way I play 3S there you've shown extras... wait, what, you opened a 10-count?!"

South: "yea, got both majors and a nice shape, both nonvul so need to compete for the partscore"

 

North is finding excuses, if he really believed that his pd has extras, why didnt he bid game previous round ? Also he is saying " You probably have a stiff club..." And why did he think his pd had 4♠+stiff ♣+extras and bid only 3♠ ??

[Zelandakh]

One option here is to use the double to differentiate between ranges for Opener. So either an immediate 3♠ is invitational and double followed by 3♠ (if possible) merely shows competitive values or the reverse. I think the OP's post-morten should really start with defining what an opening bid is for this partnership. I would routinely open this hand but I have also discussed this with my partner and she expects it. It is probably only a positive to open light if it is within agreements (a bad system played well is better than a good system played badly).