Cheating?

[Trinidad]

We'll see when she replies, but I'd be a bit surprised if so, because that's not a method that's ever been used here and, although Stefanie is American, I don't think she's played much in the ACBL for a very long time.

 

Of course win/loss/tie has its own problems, which is presumably why the ACBL came over to VPs like the rest of us. Did that co-incide with them using pre-dealt boards, or did it pre-date them?

LOL.

 

I think the switch to VP's predated the switch to pre-dealt boards. I would say the massive switch to VPs took place around 1990 while the massive switch to predealt boards took place around 2025. ;)

 

Rik

[kfay]

For West Coast regionals, the directors enforce the clock. Much better than matchpoint events, oddly enough.

 

To save time, I will start making boards before the other pair arrives, and they are generally grateful. If someone objected, I would say no problem and start the process over.

 

This reminds me of the time I almost got ZT'd.

 

I was playing with some UofM buddies in a low-level KO. We were in the final. After the semis the other team asked us if we would be OK taking a short dinner and starting the finals about an hour early. "Sure, no problem."

 

So we're there an hour early and the other team doesn't show. We start to make the boards. They walk in like 10 minutes later and I said, "We made the boards, I hope that isn't a problem." "Actually yeah, could we remake them?" Okay, not a big deal. But I was just a little irked the guy asked us to play early then pulled this one. When we start making the hands again he says, "I've gotta go out for a smoke." So there we are again dealing the cards.

 

There were some other small things that happened that got my meter rising and finally on one hand my partner claims because his hand is good. It's so obvious his hand is good the 8-year-old caddie in the next room knows it's good. I pick up my cards (dummy) and put them back in the board. This guy asks to see my hand and I say "Why does it matter? His hand is good." Or something. I obviously shouldn't act like this but I'd had enough of the guy at the time. We have an exchange around "show me the hand"... "who cares!" for another minute then he says, "I'm sorry, I just under the impression that a defender was entitled to see dummy." and I say "No, I'm sorry, I was just under the impression that you knew how to play bridge."

 

Anyway we didn't start playing again until about 10 minutes after I said that and I had to talk to the director for a bit.

[the hog]

We still use hand dealing in most team games in ACBL.

 

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

[gordontd]

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

I expect they argue about what the hands were.

[paulg]

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

 

The lack of hand records frustrates one of my team enormously, as she'd prefer to go through every card. As the rest of us prefer drinking, this is another upside to hand-dealing.

[phil_20686]

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

 

What do you mean? Now when you are complaining your partner was an idiot there can be no proof, so no reason for the argument to ever end?

 

FWIW, I have never played in a tournament that used hand dealt cards, and most of the club bridge I play is also computer dealt. Shows how young I am :P

[pigpenz]

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

 

The lack of hand records frustrates one of my team enormously, as she'd prefer to go through every card. As the rest of us prefer drinking, this is another upside to hand-dealing.

I remember playing at a sectional at lake tahoe, we were stuck in a little room downstairs at a casino couple of boards into the final sessions, there was a constant echo of 7♣ bids :unsure:

 

Even in Sacramento when they used to have a barometer final that was a problem until they started using bidding boxes around 1990.

[barmar]

That is appalling. So no hand records either of course. What do you discuss over dinner?

In Swiss Teams, most of this discussion happens between rounds, after IMPing the boards (or for teams of LOLs, *while* IMPing -- which annoys me no end when I go to confirm the score and have to wait for them to finish scoring).

 

And we can usually remember the important details of the significant boards if we want to talk about them with others over dinner, but I can see how this would be a problem for novices.

[daveharty]

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

This is a significant consideration, IMO. In every regional or sectional team event that I've ever witnessed (all of which were hand-dealt), by the time the round is 35-40 minutes old, the early finishers are wandering freely among those tables still playing, and standing in pairs or small clusters of people discussing the round's points of interest, all within earshot of active tables. The directors will frequently make a plea for calm, but as they are engaged in the busiest part of the round dealing with incoming score reports, and as nobody has ever actually received a penalty for such behavior as far as I'm aware, such pleas are almost universally ignored; at best the chaos is momentarily reduced to a dull roar. I am (and most of my partners are) pretty fast at the table, but there have certainly been times, playing against slower opponents, that I was still at an active table during the hubbub, and it's definitely frustrating. Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.

[pigpenz]

Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.

 

not only a seismic shift but a financial shift for the duplication fees and rentals of more sets of boards

[jillybean]

The big advantage of hand-dealing is that it does not matter what you hear from the surrounding tables. In my limited experience there are quite a few loud players in the ACBL.

 

This is only an advantage for the directors who don't/won't/can't deal with loud, wandering players.

 

 

This is a significant consideration, IMO. In every regional or sectional team event that I've ever witnessed (all of which were hand-dealt), by the time the round is 35-40 minutes old, the early finishers are wandering freely among those tables still playing, and standing in pairs or small clusters of people discussing the round's points of interest, all within earshot of active tables. The directors will frequently make a plea for calm, but as they are engaged in the busiest part of the round dealing with incoming score reports, and as nobody has ever actually received a penalty for such behavior as far as I'm aware, such pleas are almost universally ignored; at best the chaos is momentarily reduced to a dull roar. I am (and most of my partners are) pretty fast at the table, but there have certainly been times, playing against slower opponents, that I was still at an active table during the hubbub, and it's definitely frustrating. Going to pre-duped hands would require a seismic cultural shift in the ACBL, including much stricter enforcement of regulations calling for peace and quiet in the playing area.

It is not stricter enforcement that is needed it is simply enforcement, presently very little is done.

 

 

not only a seismic shift but a financial shift for the duplication fees and rentals of more sets of boards

 

I don't understand how for example, New Zealand Bridge can offer teams events with duplicated boards, hand records US$3.20 for two 12-14 board matches.

US$40 for at least 96 boards in a biggish tournament, duplicated boards, hand records and a meal.

 

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?

[pigpenz]

 

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?

 

Heck If I know, but before the advent of barcketed KO's every session

the teams events on sundays used to be pretty big events, thats alot of extra

money that usually the districts dont want to pay for....its not just the ACBL....

regionals and sectionals are usually subsidizied by the districts(regionals) or local units(sectionals).

 

Just watching the nationals last week they didnt evern duplicate till the round of 4.

 

 

So granted the ACBL is a giant fuzz ball in lots of cases they are just lending their name to the event, and

providing the sanctions and the directors.

[TimG]

regionals and sectionals are usually subsidizied by the districts(regionals) or local units(sectionals).

In Unit 189 (Maine) and District 25 (New England), the sectionals and regionals stand on their own, break even for the year and subsidize other activities (In Maine, the annual meeting and state championship always run at a loss -- subsidized by the sectionals; and in New England GNT funds, NABC seed money, and newcomer programs are all paid for with earnings from regionals).

[pigpenz]

In Unit 189 (Maine) and District 25 (New England), the sectionals and regionals stand on their own, break even for the year and subsidize other activities (In Maine, the annual meeting and state championship always run at a loss -- subsidized by the sectionals; and in New England GNT funds, NABC seed money, and newcomer programs are all paid for with earnings from regionals).

Yes I have seen local clubs not endorcse ACBL sanctioned events like GNT and Pairs, cause they feel all the money goes to professional players, even though we know thats not true.

[squealydan]

I don't understand how for example, New Zealand Bridge can offer teams events with duplicated boards, hand records US$3.20 for two 12-14 board matches. US$40 for at least 96 boards in a biggish tournament, duplicated boards, hand records and a meal.

 

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?

 

I think the main difference is that every club in NZ is a not-for-profit organisation, staffed almost entirely by volunteers.

 

Of course, in some ways having pre-dealt boards makes cheating easier. Our club's boards are usually dealt on the weekends - it would be nothing for me to wander in the day before my usual club night and take a copy of the hand-records home with me.

[barmar]

I don't understand how for example, New Zealand Bridge can offer teams events with duplicated boards, hand records US$3.20 for two 12-14 board matches.

US$40 for at least 96 boards in a biggish tournament, duplicated boards, hand records and a meal.

 

What does NZ Bridge have that the mightly ACBL doesn't have?

Our local sectional Swiss is usually around 60 tables. That means 30 sets of 56 boards, or over 1600 boards.

[Cascade]

Our local sectional Swiss is usually around 60 tables. That means 30 sets of 56 boards, or over 1600 boards.

 

If boards are duplicated then I think you can share between more than two tables.

[gerry]

Our local sectional Swiss is usually around 60 tables. That means 30 sets of 56 boards, or over 1600 boards.

 

 

At for example the Gold Coast Congress in Australia they have 400+ tables in action during the teams swiss and the boards are, of course, duplicated.

[jillybean]

Our local sectional Swiss is usually around 60 tables. That means 30 sets of 56 boards, or over 1600 boards.

 

 

At for example the Gold Coast Congress in Australia they have 400+ tables in action during the teams swiss and the boards are, of course, duplicated.

 

I don't understand the logistics of duplicating boards for a 60 table event.

What is needed? More volunteers, more boards, more dealing machines?

[gordontd]

Our local sectional Swiss is usually around 60 tables. That means 30 sets of 56 boards, or over 1600 boards.

8 board rounds? 15 sets of boards. Plus a couple of spares.

[pigpenz]

I don't understand the logistics of duplicating boards for a 60 table event.

What is needed? More volunteers, more boards, more dealing machines?

I think some districts make duplicating machines available, for a fee to units when

holding sectionals, regionals are probably underwritten by the districts.

[jillybean]

Yes, they do. So this is an added expense that the units, districts deem to be unnecessary?

[Finch]

I guess, but at the time it seemed pretty clear that Jourdain remembered the deal from a magazine. It seems a little implausible anyway that he would have come across the hand-dealt board twice.

 

We are lucky, really. In the other thread the ACBL event was a serious event, yet they were using hand-dealt boards. I am glad that these are a thing of the (distant) past in the EBU.

 

I'm not. The Spring Foursomes got worse when they switched to duplicated boards.

In the early rounds, there are huge, and basically insoluble, security problems. There's really no alternative to simply hoping no-one will cheat.

In the semi-finals it means (together with the BBO broadcast) that both matches have to follow the same schedule - start each set at the same time. This is really, really, frustrating if the other match is being very slow.

 

The difference, of course, is that this is a KO event.

[pigpenz]

Yes, they do. So this is an added expense that the units, districts deem to be unnecessary?

alot times yes.

In the 80's barometer finals were the thing qualifying then final barometer...back then never saw duplication

for flight A teams or KO's...we just dealt.

[Vampyr]

Way behind on the thread, but just to clarify, yes I meant win/loss.