Cheating?

[Vampyr]

From MickyB:

There was a UK player who was known for making remarkable plays as declarer, despite not seeming to be that good. He was caught when he used the same hand twice and they both got reported to Patrick Jourdain!

 

That's not quite what happened. Jourdain recognised the hand as one played many years ago by Garozzo. What I don't understand in the thread that is locked is, when you are using hand-dealt boards (!?!), how can you get UI? Preparing a board even when the CoC are so lax seems a) hard in a prestigious event and b) pointless when you are losing by loads. I think that maybe the player just guessed, looking for a big swing.

[BunnyGo]

From MickyB:

 

That's not quite what happened. Jourdain recognised the hand as one played many years ago by Garozzo. What I don't understand in the thread that is locked is, when you are using hand-dealt boards (!?!), how can you get UI? Preparing a board even when the CoC are so lax seems a) hard in a prestigious event and b) pointless when you are losing by loads. I think that maybe the player just guessed, looking for a big swing.

 

Prepping a board is not that hard if you practice, I'm sure S2000magic could pull it off without too much extra prep, and I think most clever card mechanics could do it with a bit of extra practice.

 

I've seen people deal sorted decks, at full speed and without looking at the cards, so that the hand is whatever they want. This was demonstrated for me at an NABC (but he was following the printout). I have no doubt he could have actually dealt the cards in another manner had he wished.

 

As to being pointless? Yes, I think the game is pointless when cheating, but many people do not. Pointless when you're losing anyways--every little bit helps.

[Vampyr]

I've seen people deal sorted decks, at full speed and without looking at the cards, so that the hand is whatever they want. This was demonstrated for me at an NABC (but he was following the printout). I have no doubt he could have actually dealt the cards in another manner had he wished.

 

 

I wonder... I can deal the cards pretty smartish too when there is a printout... I have never thought about whether I could deal a wanted hand, but I suppose it would be like holding the printout in your head.

[mycroft]

My bridge teacher turned in his partner at a sectional at a Swiss Teams - he was coming to the table early, and sticking in cold decks. From Kelsey. "It's not that bad, the other declarer just has to make the correct play..."

 

I can and do deal hands from printouts from sorted decks, but it's obvious I'm stacking it - the order of the cards into hands is totally different. I also know that it would be possible for any decent card magician to be a big winner at hand-dealt teams, just by controlling two or three cards. Imagine if you guessed K-J split right 80% of the time, and two-way finesses for the Q were automatic unless you chose to do it wrong - on 1/4 of the hands. It's one of the reasons that when I started to take bridge seriously, I stopped practising my card magic.

[pigpenz]

There was an ACBL lawsuit or suspension several years ago, someone was accussed of dealing off the bottom of the deck, he contended he dealt that

way cause he had a deformity. funny last night I was reading the book by Terrence Reese on his response to the Argentina 1965 Bridge Scandal after

reading the book by Truscott on it last week....two different point of views.

[gordontd]

That's not quite what happened. Jourdain recognised the hand as one played many years ago by Garozzo.

These stories get changed a little with each telling, yet everyone seems certain their version is the correct one.

 

I think that maybe the player just guessed, looking for a big swing.

Since he confessed to it, it's hard to see how you can dispute it now.

[ahh]

my recollection from magazine reports at time was that in the bad old days boards were dealt at table so in swiss events he arrived early with a predealt hand that he dealt. It was always a great play so he was rated to gain 13 imps or so - a good start in a short match. He was caught when the same hand was used twice in different events. He admitted his wrongdoing and was dealt with by the WBU. Sadly his partner who was totally exonerated of any wrong doing died very shortly thereafter.

[Vampyr]

These stories get changed a little with each telling, yet everyone seems certain their version is the correct one.

 

I guess, but at the time it seemed pretty clear that Jourdain remembered the deal from a magazine. It seems a little implausible anyway that he would have come across the hand-dealt board twice.

 

We are lucky, really. In the other thread the ACBL event was a serious event, yet they were using hand-dealt boards. I am glad that these are a thing of the (distant) past in the EBU.

[blackshoe]

My bridge teacher turned in his partner at a sectional at a Swiss Teams - he was coming to the table early, and sticking in cold decks.

 

That why the rules require a member of each team at the table before anybody starts dealing.

[pigpenz]

That why the rules require a member of each team at the table before anybody starts dealing.

I remember back at a Regional in Chicago back in 1977

we started to make the hands after the break and our opps asked us to redeal ones we had just dealt.

We said ok, but you know we are both 0-4 and playing in the consolation

[Phil]

I remember back at a Regional in Chicago back in 1977

we started to make the hands after the break and our opps asked us to redeal ones we had just dealt.

We said ok, but you know we are both 0-4 and playing in the consolation

 

For West Coast regionals, the directors enforce the clock. Much better than matchpoint events, oddly enough.

 

To save time, I will start making boards before the other pair arrives, and they are generally grateful. If someone objected, I would say no problem and start the process over.

[barmar]

Me, too.

 

The way to get away with it is to talk about having made the hands up the way you like -- no one is going to expect you to do it and joke about it. :)

[Oof Arted]

These stories get changed a little with each telling, yet everyone seems certain their version is the correct one.

 

 

Since he confessed to it, it's hard to see how you can dispute it now.

 

 

From memory the Hand in question was Pre-dealt by the offender and then merely substituted into the board Easy if you stack it N E S W take off top 13 each time

 

Found because they had decided to mark the packs put out and of course this pack was found to be unmarked

[mrdct]

What's this dealing thing that people are talking about? Doesn't everyone just play the cards as the come out of the board?

[gordontd]

From memory the Hand in question was Pre-dealt by the offender and then merely substituted into the board Easy if you stack it N E S W take off top 13 each time

 

Found because they had decided to mark the packs put out and of course this pack was found to be unmarked

As I say, these stories change a bit with each telling.

[gnasher]

As I say, these stories change a bit with each telling.

The version I heard was that two different articles were sent to Bridge Magazine, about two different events, but featuring the same hand. I heard that from the editor of Bridge Magazine, so it must be true.

 

What's this dealing thing that people are talking about? Doesn't everyone just play the cards as the come out of the board?

I expect they do now, but this was in 1999.

[Vampyr]

What's this dealing thing that people are talking about? Doesn't everyone just play the cards as the come out of the board?

 

You'd be surprised -- I have played in a number of places in Europe where they use hand-dealt boards for Swiss teams. With Victory Points.

[barmar]

We still use hand dealing in most team games in ACBL.

[jillybean]

What's this dealing thing that people are talking about? Doesn't everyone just play the cards as the come out of the board?

 

In the ACBL we pay ~$10 per match for the pleasure of dealing our own cards and foregoing the hand records.

[barmar]

It's the price we pay for getting to play bridge in what used to be the greatest democracy in the world. :)

[gordontd]

You'd be surprised -- I have played in a number of places in Europe where they use hand-dealt boards for Swiss teams. With Victory Points.

What point are you trying to make about the scoring method?

[Vampyr]

What point are you trying to make about the scoring method?

 

That sets of boards will vary a lot in their swinginess. A contestant who wins 10-0 on a flat set of boards will not get as good a score as a contestant who scores 150-100 on a very swingy set, though they may have played much better. This is why I think that Victory Points are inappropriate for contests without duplicated boards.

[gordontd]

That sets of boards will vary a lot in their swinginess. A contestant who wins 10-0 on a flat set of boards will not get as good a score as a contestant who scores 150-100 on a very swingy set, though they may have played much better. This is why I think that Victory Points are inappropriate for contests without duplicated boards.

On the contrary, converting to VPs flattens out such discrepancies to some extent, which is why I think it would be even worse to score by raw IMPs if the hands weren't pre-dealt. I think you've got it the wrong way around.

[Trinidad]

On the contrary, converting to VPs flattens out such discrepancies to some extent, which is why I think it would be even worse to score by raw IMPs if the hands weren't pre-dealt. I think you've got it the wrong way around.

I think that Stefanie did not consider scoring by raw IMPs as the alternative.

 

I think she means:

- Hand dealt boards (and different in different matches) -> Score by win/loss(/tie)

- Predealt boards -> Score by VPs (or, if you would want to, raw IMPs or total points)

 

Of course, the VP scale is dampening the effect of playing different boards in the matches, compared to scoring by raw IMPs. But in Stefanie's view playing different boards and scoring by raw IMPs would be even worse.

 

FWIW, I agree with Stefanie. But my feelings are not as strong. I think that matches scored in VP should play the same boards. But I can understand that there are circumstances where that is not desirable. Matches may be played at different times. I also know a case of a bridge club that almost exclusively plays team games. At the time that I played there, they didn't want to use predealt hands (even though they had a duplicating machine in the building) because they wanted to minimize the risk of overhearing results, etc. from other tables.

 

Rik

[gordontd]

I think she means:

- Hand dealt boards (and different in different matches) -> Score by win/loss(/tie)

We'll see when she replies, but I'd be a bit surprised if so, because that's not a method that's ever been used here and, although Stefanie is American, I don't think she's played much in the ACBL for a very long time.

 

Of course win/loss/tie has its own problems, which is presumably why the ACBL came over to VPs like the rest of us. Did that co-incide with them using pre-dealt boards, or did it pre-date them?