Dummy of your dreams, partner!

[daveharty]

[hv=pc=n&s=shkqjt2d97653ca65&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp1n(forcing)p3sp]133|200[/hv]

[HighLow21]

Who the heck would bid 6D??

 

As long as partner has at least 2 hearts or A♥ blank, 4H should make. I'm worried about getting rid of my diamond losers, and entries to dummy, but I'll just have to wait to see his hand.

 

If he rebid 4S I'm passing like a shot.

[wyman]

IMO, 4-any is a cue for spades, so my options are 3N, pass, and 4S. I think 4S has the best shot.

 

edit: and the 6♦ option is a reference to http://www.bridgebas...40621-good-bid/

 

edit2: by "the best shot" I mean "highest EV" (since obv 3S has a better shot at making than 4S)

[Phil]

I think we are good enough to make 3N on pure power. I would be worried about three trump losers and a side loser, or two trump losers and two more in 4♠.

 

4 of anything is a cuebid for spades. Doesn't always work well, and you can make a sensible case that 4♥ is natural and 4m is a cue.

[dwar0123]

If partner has the kind of hand that wants to play 4♠ opposite a void, he is welcome to bid it over my 3nt.

[ArtK78]

Who the heck would bid 6D??

It is an inside joke. See wyman's post, above.

[mr1303]

4S. Agree that 4H is a cue, not a suggestion to play.

 

I prefer a 3NT call to be soft values. This sort of hand is a 4S bid in my book.

[Fluffy]

4♥ a cuebid? what will the hand look like?. Am I forbidden to have 7 decent hearts? by wich rule?

[Cyberyeti]

4S. Agree that 4H is a cue, not a suggestion to play.

 

I prefer a 3NT call to be soft values. This sort of hand is a 4S bid in my book.

So what is partner supposed to do with a 6 count and a 9 card suit, not everybody plays weak jump shifts.

[ArtK78]

So what is partner supposed to do with a 6 count and a 9 card suit, not everybody plays weak jump shifts.

I doubt that the first call on a hand with a 9 card suit would be 1NT.

[HighLow21]

Note how much easier the bidding on this hand is with SAYC. (I'm going to get flak for this...)

[phil_20686]

I dont really understand 4S. If partner has a trump suit good enough to play 4S opposite a void he will pull, and if you hit im with some 16 count and KJ76xx spade suit he is not going to thank you in 4Sx.

 

I mean I'm an opitmist normally, but here very bad things can happen in 4S which wont happen if you bid 3N...

[phil_20686]

I doubt that the first call on a hand with a 9 card suit would be 1NT.

 

I have bid 1N with 7 card suits for sure, even pretty good ones, if I decide not to GF.

 

The reasons for playing 4x are basically that it makes it the same as if you had a natural auction. 1h-1s-3h, where we are all agreed that 4m = cue.

 

There is certainly an argument for playing 4M= natural. Especially if there are no three card raises that go through 1N. I mean if you have denied a limit raise with 3 card support and partner is not making a game force it must be rare to have a slam.

 

I vaguely recall someone advocating that a 4m bid should be on a trick source with spade support anyways, a hand like Ax xxx AQxxxx xxx, which I guess makes sense too. I mean, its not like you should cue with a ten count and doubleton support, partner only showed 15-18 ish, and denied a 4 card side suit.

 

I could defo come around to 4M= natural and 4m = suit+spade support, but its just a lot of agreement for a very small problem.

Edited March 19, 2012 by phil_20686

[Cyberyeti]

I doubt that the first call on a hand with a 9 card suit would be 1NT.

What are you going to do over 1♠ with void, KJx, x, Qxxxxxxxx if 3♣ is strong ? pass ? 0418 is probably even worse.

[daveharty]

If partner has a trump suit good enough to play 4S opposite a void he will pull

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Is partner supposed to know to pull with AKQJxxx xx x KQx? That looks like a pretty useful NT dummy opposite a hand that has said "I heard you have extra spades and extra values and I would like to play 3NT." I honestly don't know, but one thing I would NOT worry about is catching partner with a spade suit like you mention (KJ76xx). We don't jump rebid suits like that, and I was under the impression that it isn't standard practice.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=shkqjt2d97653ca65&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp1n(forcing)p3sp]133|200[/hv]

 

 

 

3nt no prb yet.

 

expect pard to have a stiff h on this auction often.

[dwar0123]

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. Is partner supposed to know to pull with AKQJxxx xx x KQx? That looks like a pretty useful NT dummy opposite a hand that has said "I heard you have extra spades and extra values and I would like to play 3NT."

Yes, that is clearly a good enough spade suit opposite a void to play in 4♠. Just because the hand can takes tricks in nt doesn't mean it works less well in spades. You have a stiff and a doubleton, why would you ever want to play in nt(assuming you are playing imps). If you are playing mps, it's a reasonable gamble by both sides to assume the other has the remaining suits stopped.

I honestly don't know, but one thing I would NOT worry about is catching partner with a spade suit like you mention (KJ76xx). We don't jump rebid suits like that, and I was under the impression that it isn't standard practice.

What about kjt9xx? What do you do with such a suit and 17 points opposite 1nt? Deny the 6 card spade suit and bid 2nt?

[wyman]

Yes, that is clearly a good enough spade suit opposite a void to play in 4♠. Just because the hand can takes tricks in nt doesn't mean it works less well in ♠. You have a stiff and a doubleton, why would you ever want to play in nt(assuming you are playing imps).

 

Because 9 < 10 ?

[dwar0123]

Because 9 < 10 ?

Partner would have to something almost exactly like

- qjxxx kqjxx jxx

 

for 4 spades to go down 1 and 3nt to make, a carefully constructed hand where all the honor positions are one less then partners length in the suits. I would wager the odds of this happening are an order of magnitude less then the number of hands you could construct that 4♠ makes and 3nt doesn't. Maybe 2 orders of magnitude.

 

That is the only difference worth looking at, as we can ignore the vast majority of hands were neither can make or both can make.

[wyman]

What about kjt9xx? What do you do with such a suit and 17 points opposite 1nt? Deny the 6 card spade suit and bid 2nt?

 

Actually I think this is totally reasonable.

 

I think that jump rebidding spades shows a suit that will play for roughly 1 loser opposite a stiff. Sometimes partner will raise with a stiff, sometimes even with a void.

 

I have far less concern in 4S than in 3N with responder's hand, but this is a question of judgment, not of system. I'm happy if a slew of people think I'm wrong though. It probably means I am.

[wyman]

Partner would have to something almost exactly like

- qjxxx kqjxx jxx

 

for 4 spades to go down 1 and 3nt to make, a carefully constructed hand where all the honor positions are one less then partners length in the suits. I would wager the odds of this happening are an order of magnitude less then the number of hands you could construct that 4♠ makes and 3nt doesn't. Maybe 2 orders of magnitude.

 

That is the only difference worth looking at, as we can ignore the vast majority of hands were neither can make or both can make.

 

Or you might have 9 tricks, and on the wrong lead, you get all of them in 3N, but you can't ever get a 10th -- even in spades. So I'm saying that opener should really only be bidding 4S with a hand that he hasn't fully described. And this means that responder is allowed to raise on a hand like this.

[dwar0123]

Actually I think this is totally reasonable.

 

I think that jump rebidding spades shows a suit that will play for roughly 1 loser opposite a stiff. Sometimes partner will raise with a stiff, sometimes even with a void.

 

I have far less concern in 4S than in 3N with responder's hand, but this is a question of judgment, not of system. I'm happy if a slew of people think I'm wrong though. It probably means I am.

As long as both you and your partner are happy with the agreement, nothing wrong with that. I think its more useful to accurately describe shape trusting my partner to bid 3nt with a void knowing that I will correct if my spade suit can hold up opposite a void.

 

What would the spade bidder have to have to pull 3nt to 4♠? It seems like an undefined bid in your methods.

[HighLow21]

Because 9 < 10 ?

True, and in most cases your trick count in NT and ♠ will be the same. However if one of the red suits is unstopped or only stopped once, the trick tally in spades might be much higher than in NT.

 

Just look at AKQJxxx xx x KQx opposite the South hand given. The opponents could easily rattle off 4-5 diamonds in NT to start, plus the heart ace, while there are 11 tricks on top in spades on reasonable major suit breaks. Even if one of the majors is 5-1, the spade game makes. Sure, you can construct South hands where there are exactly 9 tricks in both NT and spades, but at IMPS, clearly 4♠ is more likely to make. (The 10-point score difference in the scenario that there are as many NT tricks as tricks in spades may swing the decision to passing out 3NT.)

 

Here's my problem with 3NT, though: since most of North's hands worthy of a 3S rebid will have at least 7 HCP in spades, there may well be entry trouble to North's hand to establish and run the spades. Even though partner's strength is likely concentrated in the suit that we are void, isn't it still usually better to play a powerful misfit in a suit? Especially when it could be that EITHER major is a sufficient trump suit opposite little or no support?

 

For me, 4H > 4S > 3N. If I reverse the red suits, then 4S > 3N > 4D > 4H.

[wyman]

Just look at AKQJxxx xx x KQx opposite the South hand given. The opponents could easily rattle off 4-5 diamonds in NT to start, plus the heart ace, while there are 11 tricks on top in spades on reasonable major suit breaks. Even if one of the majors is 5-1, the spade game makes. Sure, you can construct South hands where there are exactly 9 tricks in both NT and spades, but at IMPS, clearly 4♠ is more likely to make. (The 10-point score difference in the scenario that there are as many NT tricks as tricks in spades may swing the decision to passing out 3NT.)

 

A few points:

(1) that is not a 3S call for me.

(2) I have 5 crappy diamonds, so you're right that opps could run them, but:

...(a) they might not lead them, and

...(b) they may see 9xxxx in dummy, not want to establish the 5th diamond, and shift to a club.

 

edit: the real point is that this isnt a hand where we need to consider 3N v 4S; we would have bid 4S directly over 1N or autosplintered if we're feeling real saucy (I'm not). So it's surely right, as you suggest, to pull 3N here, since you shouldnt have put yourself in this position in the first place imo.

[dwar0123]

A few points:

(1) that is not a 3S call for me.

(2) I have 5 crappy diamonds, so you're right that opps could run them, but:

...(a) they might not lead them, and

...(b) they may see 9xxxx in dummy, not want to establish the 5th diamond, and shift to a club.

 

With regards to point b. They are going to see a stiff in dummy and 7 running spade tricks with the kqx of clubs as an entry.