Biddign Style Question

[gwnn]

a 16+ 4441 hand is one of the easier hands in precision to bid. You just open 1♣ and reopen with a double after your LHO bids your singleton :)

[32519]

1. Opens 1D - though some will open it 1H (playing with 4 card majors, but 5 is the standard I gather)

2. It depends. Most will have some way of self splintering or showing a 4414 in a GF auction

 

This doesn’t help me anything. The problem is not the opening bid, but the continuation bidding. How does the opening bidder get the 4441 message across?

 

In the post below, this was one of the ways I used to show a 4441 max.

 

I’m sorry but the only guy I agree with here is brian_m. If you are playing Precision, I don’t see how you can open the ♦ suit first. How do you bid a 4441 hand with 14-15 HCP (max)? After 1♦, partner makes the expected ♥ response and now you jump to 2♠? How do you think partner is going to interpret the bid? He will understand 4144 (singleton ♥) and 14-15 HCP (or 13-15 depending on your style). If you are playing Precision, you need to open the ♠ suit first and then jump bid in ♦ second time round.

 

I can live with brian_m’s suggestion of opening 1NT if your hand falls into the 13-15 HCP range. The corollary here would be opening 1♦ and possibly bidding 1NT with a ♠ singleton when partner responds 1♠ and you have 11-12 HCP.

 

1) The overwhelming majority will open 1♦ (I say overwhelming majority because there are a few gadgets around, and some will open 1NT with 13-15 (assuming that's their 1NT range). As regards continuations if you do open 1♦, then as you'll have seen from the rest of this thread, opinions differ. :)

2) Strong 4441 hands have been a problem ever since strong 1♣ systems were invented. I can think of at least four different methods that I've used with them at one time or another. My favourite is to use the Cambridge 1♥ complex (there's more than one version of that, too!). In the version I play, 1♣-1♦-1♥ shows a normal 1♥ rebid OR some balanced ranges OR any 4441 shape.

 

However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1♣ 1♦ ? distorts your hand pattern. I have seen Precision players moving these hand types out of the 1♣ opener into the 2♦ bid, Multi style. But this also gets messy when you have to show the singleton on level 4 (all depends on how the bidding has progressed).

 

FWIW the Precision players using the 2♦ bid as Multi style have changed their responses as follows:

1. 2♥ = artificial, 0-13 HCP, no interest in game unless one of the strong hand patterns has been opened. This is basically Pass/Correct whenever opener has a weak 2 in ♥ or ♠.

2. 2♠ = artificial, 14+ HCP, game interest if opener is in the upper end of the weak 2 bid.

[brian_m]

 

<...>

However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1♣ 1♦ ? distorts your hand pattern. I have seen Precision players moving these hand types out of the 1♣ opener into the 2♦ bid, Multi style. But this also gets messy when you have to show the singleton on level 4 (all depends on how the bidding has progressed).

 

FWIW the Precision players using the 2♦ bid as Multi style have changed their responses as follows:

1. 2♥ = artificial, 0-13 HCP, no interest in game unless one of the strong hand patterns has been opened. This is basically Pass/Correct whenever opener has a weak 2 in ♥ or ♠.

2. 2♠ = artificial, 14+ HCP, game interest if opener is in the upper end of the weak 2 bid.

 

I used to use what was called "Multi Twos in Precision" - that was what it was called when licenced by the EBU, AFAIR - to show the strong three suiters. In this setup, all of 2♦, 2♥, 2♠ and 2NT openers were multi-way. I think the EBU made that scheme illegal at some point.

 

What I prefer now is that 1♣-1♦-1♥ forces responder to bid 1♠. Opener's rebids are then 1NT = a normal 1♥ rebid, 2 of a suit = 4441 suit below the shortage and 16-19, 3 of a suit shows 20-23, and so on. The NT rebids except 1NT are used to show balanced hands, combining those with the direct NT rebids after 1♣-1♦ you can show 2 point ranges all the way from 20-21 upwards.

[Zelandakh]

This doesn’t help me anything. The problem is not the opening bid, but the continuation bidding. How does the opening bidder get the 4441 message across?

My strong club system is not Precision (1♦ is up to 17 and promises 4+ diamonds) but opposite a weak Responder I just bid suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown. Opener can then make a try if game is still in the picture. If Responder is stronger then the shape will usually be relayed out.

 

However, your problems are compounded with 16+ and a 4441 hand pattern. Any bid you make over 1♣ 1♦ ? distorts your hand pattern.

I use the sequence 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♠ to show either an unbalanced game force or a 3-suited hand with 18+ hcp. If Responder has a maximum negative then a Roman Club-style structure is used. If Responder is minimum then a scramble method is employed. If Responder has enough to game-force over 1♣ then Opener will initiate relays.

[32519]

My strong club system is not Precision (1♦ is up to 17 and promises 4+ diamonds) but opposite a weak Responder I just bid suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown. Opener can then make a try if game is still in the picture. If Responder is stronger then the shape will usually be relayed out.

 

 

I use the sequence 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♠ to show either an unbalanced game force or a 3-suited hand with 18+ hcp. If Responder has a maximum negative then a Roman Club-style structure is used. If Responder is minimum then a scramble method is employed. If Responder has enough to game-force over 1♣ then Opener will initiate relays.

 

So the 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern falls into your 1♦ opening? That’s fine if you have a 4-card ♦ suit. How do you deal with 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern and a singleton ♦?

 

After a 1♦ opening, I presume 1♥ shows the weak responder which kicks in the sequence "bidding 4-card suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown?"

[32519]

This discussion is starting to get interesting.

 

1) The overwhelming majority will open 1♦ (I say overwhelming majority because there are a few gadgets around, and some will open 1NT with 13-15 (assuming that's their 1NT range). As regards continuations if you do open 1♦, then as you'll have seen from the rest of this thread, opinions differ. :)

 

2) Strong 4441 hands have been a problem ever since strong 1♣ systems were invented. I can think of at least four different methods that I've used with them at one time or another. My favourite is to use the Cambridge 1♥ complex (there's more than one version of that, too!). In the version I play, 1♣-1♦-1♥ shows a normal 1♥ rebid OR some balanced ranges OR any 4441 shape.

 

Regarding your point 1 above what is your gadget? You have already said you open 1NT if the 4441 hand pattern is within your NT range. But what if it isn't? What do you do now? Do you pass with 11-12 HCP or do you employ the gadget? Let's hear what the gadget is.

 

Regarding your point 2, kindly post the detail here for the benefit of others as well. Start with your favourite, the Cambridge complex that you use (forget the variations). I would love to hear what the other 3 methods are that you have used in the past. Somewhere amongst all that I can optimise my own methods for the 4441 hand pattern.

 

Thank you.

[Zelandakh]

So the 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern falls into your 1♦ opening? That’s fine if you have a 4-card ♦ suit. How do you deal with 16-17 HCP 4441 hand pattern and a singleton ♦?

I open it 1♣ and either rebid 1NT (15-17) over a negative 1♦ or use a specialist rebid over a positive response (eg 1♣ - 1♥ - 2NT = 4414 and 15-17).

 

 

After a 1♦ opening, I presume 1♥ shows the weak responder which kicks in the sequence "bidding 4-card suits up the line until some kind of fit is shown?"

1♥ is a relay with the stronger (invite or better) hands. 1NT is used to show a heart suit in the up-the-line bidding sequences. Pretty much any response other than 1♥ is weak.

[helene_t]

I am pretty sure that Wei's original book had 1♦=4+ while Goren's did not.

 

Anyway, I open 1♦ and rebid 2♠ with this hand.

[brian_m]

This discussion is starting to get interesting.

 

 

 

Regarding your point 1 above what is your gadget? You have already said you open 1NT if the 4441 hand pattern is within your NT range. But what if it isn't? What do you do now? Do you pass with 11-12 HCP or do you employ the gadget? Let's hear what the gadget is.

 

Regarding your point 2, kindly post the detail here for the benefit of others as well. Start with your favourite, the Cambridge complex that you use (forget the variations). I would love to hear what the other 3 methods are that you have used in the past. Somewhere amongst all that I can optimise my own methods for the 4441 hand pattern.

 

Thank you.

 

 

No, I didn't say that I personally would open 1NT with 4441 shape. In fact, I don't play a balanced 1NT opener. All my 11-15 balanced hands are in 1♦, The gadget I use for a 1NT opener is called the Aveyard 1NT, it came out (in the UK) in the early 1980s, AFAIR. A 1NT opener shows 11-15 and 1) a 4441 or 5440 shape, always short ♣ 2) 5+♦ and a 4 card major 3) 6+♦

 

Over our 1♦ opener we play 1M natural and NON forcing, unless opener is maximum, and 2♣ and 2♦ are also artificial inquiries.

 

 

As regards the ways I've used to show three suiters, in order of my preference, they were

 

1) The Cambridge 1♥ as I posted earlier.

 

2) The multi twos with Precision. 2♦ was the standard Precision 2♦ or a weak 2♥ or 21-22 balanced, 2♥ was a weak 2♠ or 16-19 any 4441, 2♠ was a 3-level pre-empt in a minor or 20-23 any 4441, 2NT was the Sharif-style 3♣ opener or 24+ any 4441. That left room for Salisbury pre-empts, 3♣=both minors, 3♦ = one major, 3♥ = both majors and 3S = solid minor.

 

3) Wrap the strong 3-suiters into a multi 2♦, more or less as you (or someone) described previously.

 

4) Treat the better/only minor as a five card suit.

 

 

If you want all the continuations, I would have to try to find some old notes.