inquiry Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 - I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future. If you decide to put the hands here, I'll find time to explain the Bidding, but do not forget, it is the Bidding for the light version of Fp. Although the Counting is the same, the opening and responding bids are obsolutely different from the original ForcePoint's version for computers and Experts. It is simply very easy natural Bidding for everyone, but because the Counting is very accurate, the results are still very good. Ok, I accept the challenge (in part because i found multiple pages where you are in fact trying to sell this thing), and pulled up the hands to see if the "counting is very accurate". There is little doubt that one touney you list was "very good". ACBL #63 won by Pavell and his partner NellBB. When played, Pavell was WEST, I have rotated all the hands so Pavell always sits in the SOUTH seat. I have removed all other player names. Here are the 12 hand from ACBL #63 from august 22 that is touted on the webpage by Pavell that if you played forcepoint you could have results like these. This event was a huge win for the forcepoint pair. The question was, did Forcepoint have anything to do with the victory? To be fair to Forcepoint, Pavell has already said that this was a light version of the full system, but it was “very accurate”. I assume he will explain the bidding, and defend the actions for these 12 hands. But to get it started, I added the results table for each board, and give my views of the auction/result for each of the 12 hands. I will summarize my view as saying Fp had nothing to do with the victory, and in fact, the bidding deserved a much worse result that actually achieved. BTW, I used a commercial product made by a third party to generate these results called BridgeBrowser. [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Six spades is cold. To make six spades, WEST has to have 1, 2, or 3 hearts to at least one of the top two cards in that suit, and you must not lose a spade (to four or five to the jack with WEST for instance). The odds of finding hearts ok is only 19% or so. Still, the slam is cold. A success? I guess so. The results on this hand was…. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 6S N HA =========== 11 -50 -11.042 2H S S9 =========== 8 110 -8.353 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.744 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.745 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.746 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.747 4S N S6 =========== 11 450 -0.748 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.749 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.7410 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.7411 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7412 3N N S6 =========== 11 460 -0.7413 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7414 3N S H6 =========== 11 460 -0.7415 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7416 4S N D8 =========== 12 480 0.1317 4S N C4 =========== 12 480 0.1318 4S N S6 =========== 12 480 0.1319 4S N C4 =========== 12 480 0.1320 3N N H4 =========== 12 490 0.2621 3N N H4 =========== 12 490 0.2622 2HX E C6 =========== 4 800 7.1723 6S N HA =========== 12 980 10.3924 6S S S3 Pavell 12 980 10.39 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Four spades is not a very good contract. It has to lose 2H, 2D, 1C, for down two. Even bad defense should hold it to minus one. Getting to 4S on this hand doesn’t seem like it should be the victory it was. Still. Pavell- NellBB are up 17.48 imps after just two boards. In theory, this 4♠ contract should be two away, to reduce the imp score to +4.29 (this poor defense was a huge swing of 12.79 # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4S S S5 =========== 8 -100 -5.72 4S S C2 =========== 8 -100 -5.73 4S S S5 =========== 8 -100 -5.74 4S S C9 =========== 9 -50 -4.395 4S S S6 =========== 9 -50 -4.396 4S S HA =========== 9 -50 -4.397 1N N D5 =========== 7 90 -0.968 2S S C9 =========== 8 110 -0.439 2S S S6 =========== 8 110 -0.4310 2S S DK =========== 8 110 -0.4311 3S S DK =========== 9 140 0.4812 3S S S6 =========== 9 140 0.4813 2S S HA =========== 9 140 0.4814 3S S S5 =========== 9 140 0.4815 1N N D4 =========== 9 150 0.4816 3S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4817 2S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4818 3S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4819 2S S S6 =========== 10 170 1.4820 2S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4821 2S S CJ =========== 10 170 1.4822 4S S HA =========== 10 420 7.0923 4S S S5 =========== 10 420 7.0924 4S S S5 Pavell 10 420 7.09 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Ok. Here Pavell’s bidding is good. EW can make 3♦ (6♦+1♥+2♣), so down one in 3♥ (if no double since NS are vul) is about even result. The defense was weak. West got off to the club lead, and seeing dummy, should visualize cash two clubs, get to partner with the diamond ace, ruff a club. This defense sets 3♥ one for a push board at imps. The defense, however slipped when WEST switched at trick two. Still. Pavell- NellBB are up 21.35 imps after just three boards. The poor defense here by EW was a swing of 5.87 imps. With reasonable defense Pavell-NellBB would be at minus -1.18 imps. (I forgot to put the results here, sorry) [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This is not exactly a bidding victory for ForcePoint. 4♠ is a horrible contract. It has to lose a spade (at least) regardless how the suit splits, and possible two. A heart loser is a good bet, a diamond loser for sure. And great chances for two club losers. It takes a very aggressive club lead from WEST to let it make. and even then, you have to ignore restricted choice and drop QJ of hearts doubleton offside. No denying it, after the defense let this make, Pavell-NellBB have a tremendous score of + 30.78 imps after four boards. Of course, here was another huge swing caused by the poor defense. Setting 4♠ just one (and two is possible on restricted choice), this would be a swing of 14.65 against the Fp pair, and their imps (with average defense on boards 2,3, and 4 would be -15.83 instead of +31. Here are the results. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 3S N HQ =========== 7 -200 -7.482 3H N CT =========== 8 -100 -5.223 3N N D9 =========== 8 -100 -5.224 4H N CT =========== 9 -100 -5.225 3S N HQ =========== 8 -100 -5.226 3S N HQ =========== 8 -100 -5.227 4S N DA =========== 9 -100 -5.228 4H N ST =========== 9 -100 -5.229 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.310 3S N CT =========== 9 140 0.311 3H N CT =========== 9 140 0.312 2S N CT =========== 9 140 0.313 3H N ST =========== 9 140 0.314 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.315 3S N CT =========== 9 140 0.316 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.317 3H N CT =========== 9 140 0.318 3H N DJ =========== 10 170 1.1719 3H N CT =========== 10 170 1.1720 3H N CT =========== 10 170 1.1721 4S N DA =========== 10 620 9.4322 4H N C4 =========== 10 620 9.4323 4H N ST =========== 10 620 9.4324 4S S CK Pavell 10 620 9.43 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Ok.. here there is a play for 6♠. It can even make on the current layout, and yet no sniff of squeeze. I am happy however with the four spade contract, and let the +1.59 imp stand as an example of good bridge. Pavell pair up 32.37 imps, and with average defense on earlier hands, would be minus 14.24# Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 4S N CK =========== 9 -50 -9.772 2H W C3 =========== 0 0 03 1S N CK =========== 9 140 -5.734 2S N D2 =========== 11 200 -4.455 3S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.456 2S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.457 2S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.458 3S N CK =========== 12 230 -4.059 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5910 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5911 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5912 4S N D5 =========== 11 450 1.5913 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5914 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5915 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5916 4S N D5 =========== 11 450 1.5917 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5918 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5919 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5920 4S S C3 Pavell 11 450 1.5921 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5922 4S N D5 =========== 12 480 2.523 4S N CK =========== 12 480 2.524 6S S S5 =========== 12 980 11.68 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Yuck. A five diamond sacrifice vulnerable versus not vul. This could be a total disaster. Very easy defense can get this down three (2♥, 1♠, 1♣ ruff, king of club), for -800 for Pavell-NellBB pair. That would be huge imp disaster. The defense went, let’s just say, horribly wrong, and beat it only one. So Pavell picked up 5.61 imps, for an astounding 37.98 imps. But if the defense just beat this two, which is clearly easy, this is a swing of 9.44 imps (it could be a much much larger swing of around 17 imps…. This is not impressive. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4SX E C7 =========== 11 -690 -7.652 4SX E DA =========== 11 -690 -7.653 5CX N DJ =========== 9 -500 -3.834 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.355 5S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.356 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.357 4S E DK =========== 11 -450 -2.358 4S E DK =========== 11 -450 -2.359 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.3510 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.3511 4S E C4 =========== 11 -450 -2.3512 4S E C4 =========== 11 -450 -2.3513 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6514 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6515 4S E DK =========== 10 -420 -1.6516 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6517 5C N DJ =========== 7 -400 -0.8318 5CX S S4 =========== 10 -200 3.4819 5CX N DJ =========== 10 -200 3.4820 3S E DA =========== 11 -200 3.4821 5D N SA NellBB 10 -100 5.6122 5SX E DA =========== 10 100 923 6SX E DA =========== 11 100 924 5C S S4 =========== 11 600 13.65 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Another less than great contract. To be fair to ForcePoint the field bid 3NT and made it. But the defense to set 3NT is easy. On the heart queen lead and duck in dummy (which is what happens here), East only need to win the ace and return it. Declarer will probably go down two (hoping EAST has club ace) rather than give up down one when diamonds turn out to be 5-1. Still, we will figure best defense is down one… so instead of the +5.39 imps Forcepoint picks up here, it should lose 7.1, yet another game swing value of +12.48. So Pavell-Neibb increase their lead to +43.37, but could easily with normal defense be minus 36.16. Here are the results. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 2HX E DA =========== n9 -870 -15.042 2HX E DA =========== 8 -670 -13.483 3N N HQ =========== 6 -300 -9.744 3N N HQ =========== 7 -200 -8.35 5D S S5 =========== 9 -200 -8.36 3S E DA =========== 9 -140 -7.787 1H E DA =========== 8 -110 -7.098 4H E DA =========== 9 100 -4.659 4HX E DQ =========== 8 500 2.3510 4HX E DA =========== 8 500 2.3511 4HX E DA =========== o8 500 2.3512 4SX E DA =========== 8 500 2.3513 5C S HA =========== 11 600 4.5714 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3915 3N S D7 =========== 10 630 5.3916 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3917 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3918 3N S D2 =========== 10 630 5.3919 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3920 3N S D2 =========== 10 630 5.3921 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3922 3N N HQ NellBB 10 630 5.3923 3N S D3 =========== 11 660 5.9624 3N S CT =========== 11 660 5.96 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Five clubs is yet another overbid for ForcePoint. Guess we are all surprised with the defense couldn’t find a way to allow this to make. Finally a minus imp score for the Forcepoint pair (lose 3.43 imps) for a total of +39.94. This is an interesting score, because with just normal defense on the game hands from above, this 3 imp lose here would mean the forcepoint score could be -39.59 imps. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 3D W C2 =========== 10 -130 -5.32 2D W S6 =========== 8 -90 -4.483 2H S DA =========== 7 -50 -3.434 4S N D3 =========== 9 -50 -3.435 5C S C4 Pavell 10 -50 -3.436 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.617 4D W CT =========== 9 50 -0.618 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.619 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.6110 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.6111 3D E CA =========== 8 50 -0.6112 3D W C2 =========== 8 50 -0.6113 4D W C2 =========== 8 100 0.9614 3DX W C2 =========== 8 100 0.9615 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6116 3C S HQ =========== 10 130 1.6117 4C S SJ =========== 10 130 1.6118 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6119 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6120 3S S C8 =========== 9 140 2.0421 3S N DK =========== 9 140 2.0422 3S N D3 =========== 9 140 2.0423 4H E CK =========== 7 150 2.3524 4DX W CT =========== 8 300 5.91 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv]Ok Pavell’s opponents found their 4-2 heart fit AFTER they found a diamond fit. This time Pavell deserved to be lucky. I wonder how the bidding would have gone if West had rebid 3D instead of 3H. We may never know. 3H down two was a nice pickup for Pavell- NellBB of 1.65 imps for +41.59 imps (could be -37.94. Here are the results. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4SX S CA =========== 7 -800 -14.042 5S S D4 =========== 9 -200 -7.093 3D W S9 =========== 9 -110 -5.264 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.135 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.136 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.137 3D W S4 =========== 8 50 -2.178 2N W S9 =========== 6 100 -0.79 2N W S9 =========== 6 100 -0.710 2S S CA =========== 8 110 -0.6511 2S S CA =========== 8 110 -0.6512 2S S D4 =========== 8 110 -0.6513 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2614 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2615 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2616 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2617 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2618 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2619 3H W S9 (your opp) 5 200 1.6520 4DX W S4 ========== 8 300 3.6521 5DX W S9 ========== 8 500 7.4822 3SX S D4 ========== 29 730 10.723 3SX S D9 ========== 9 730 10.724 5DX W S4 ========== 7 800 11.57 [/font][hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] 1♣ is probably as good as any for you. The defense let you make (good defense can hold you to 3♣, 1♦, 1♥ and 1♠, and EW could have balanced and played 2 or 3 spades. But this might be a plus of forcepoint. EW might pass 1♣ hoping it would be better for them than bidding on. This raises the score to +43.94 (it could be -35.59) # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 2N W S3 ========== 9 -150 -3.482 2S E HA ========== 9 -140 -3.33 1S W H2 ========== 9 -140 -3.34 2N E C9 ========== 8 -120 -2.615 1N E D3 ========== 8 -120 -2.616 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.397 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.398 2S W D5 ========== 8 -110 -2.399 2S E D3 ========== 8 -110 -2.3910 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.3911 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.3912 2S E DJ ========== 8 -110 -2.3913 1N N S4 ========== 6 -100 -2.2614 1C S D4 ========== 7 70 2.3515 1D S D2 ========== 7 70 2.3516 1C S D2 Pavell 7 70 2.3517 1D S S2 ========== 8 90 2.8718 1N N S4 ========== 7 90 2.8719 1D S C5 ========== 8 90 2.8720 2S E D3 ========== 7 100 321 3S E D3 ========== 8 100 322 3S W D5 ========== 8 100 323 1DX S D4 ========== 7 140 4.0924 3CX W H2 ========== 8 200 5.57 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] EW bid their game, and cost 40.03 (could be minus 39.5). Here are the results of board 11. # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 5DX E H5 =========== 11 -550 -7.392 5HX S DA =========== 8 -500 -6.173 5D E C7 =========== 12 -420 -4.614 5D E C5 =========== 12 -420 -4.615 5D E C5 =========== 12 -420 -4.616 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.917 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.918 5D E H7 =========== 11 -400 -3.919 5D E H6 =========== 11 -400 -3.9110 5D E H6 =========== 11 -400 -3.9111 5D E ST =========== 11 -400 -3.9112 5D E ST wascana 11 -400 -3.9113 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.9114 4HX S DA =========== 48 -300 -1.5715 3D E H5 =========== 11 -150 1.6116 4D E ST =========== 11 -150 1.6117 3D E H6 =========== 11 -150 1.6118 3H S DA =========== 28 -50 3.6519 6D E H5 =========== 11 50 5.5720 6D E H5 =========== 11 50 5.5721 3N W HA =========== 8 50 5.5722 4H S H4 =========== 10 420 10.5723 4SX N DK =========== 10 590 12.2624 4HX S H4 =========== 10 590 12.26 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This is another hand the opponents controlled, and they went down an extra trick, but ok.. another +3.91 imps for Pavell, but with average defense on the overbid hands, could easily be minus 35.59. # Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 3N W D9 =========== 10 -630 -11.612 3N E H5 =========== 9 -600 -11.433 2S W S3 =========== 10 -170 -5.434 2N W D9 =========== 8 -120 -4.35 3C E H5 =========== 9 -110 -3.526 1NX N CQ =========== 6 -100 -3.437 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.178 3N E D5 =========== 8 100 1.179 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1710 3N E HT =========== 8 100 1.1711 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1712 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1713 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1714 2C E DA =========== 8 100 1.1715 4S W H3 =========== 9 100 1.1716 3N E D7 =========== 8 100 1.1717 4S W SA =========== 8 100 1.1718 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1719 3N E H5 =========== 7 200 3.9120 3N E D8 =========== 7 200 3.9121 3N E D5 =========== 7 200 3.9122 3C E D4 wascana 7 200 3.9123 2N E H5 =========== 7 200 3.9124 3N W H6 =========== 6 300 6.09 A winning 42 imp score, but could be a next to last place -36 imps, and this doesn't even count the fact that board one slam was less than 20% chance of success. The Forcepoint page holds this tournment result as "(A) snapshoot of NFP's achivement on one ACBL Tournament." I wondered how the result was achieved after a short study of the "method". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Ouch, that was a painful read!!! I guess that's the end of 18 years of intense study. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Ouch, that was a painful read!!! I guess that's the end of 18 years of intense study. :blink: Well to be fair, this was only 12 hands, and this was forcepoint light, or sayc or something. Also, even the greatest partnerships have bad sessions from time to time...and after all, they did win this event. But then, this contracts reached do not convince me this is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Ouch, that was a painful read!!! I guess that's the end of 18 years of intense study. :blink: - I'm surprised, too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 - I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future. If you decide to put the hands here, I'll find time to explain the Bidding, but do not forget, it is the Bidding for the light version of Fp. Although the Counting is the same, the opening and responding bids are obsolutely different from the original ForcePoint's version for computers and Experts. It is simply very easy natural Bidding for everyone, but because the Counting is very accurate, the results are still very good. Ok, I accept the challenge (in part because i found multiple pages where you are in fact trying to sell this thing), and pulled up the hands to see if the "counting is very accurate". There is little doubt that one touney you list was "very good". ACBL #63 won by Pavell and his partner NellBB. When played, Pavell was WEST, I have rotated all the hands so Pavell always sits in the SOUTH seat. I have removed all other player names. Here are the 12 hand from ACBL #63 from august 22 that is touted on the webpage by Pavell that if you played forcepoint you could have results like these. This event was a huge win for the forcepoint pair. The question was, did Forcepoint have anything to do with the victory? To be fair to Forcepoint, Pavell has already said that this was a light version of the full system, but it was “very accurate”. I assume he will explain the bidding, and defend the actions for these 12 hands. But to get it started, I added the results table for each board, and give my views of the auction/result for each of the 12 hands. I will summarize my view as saying Fp had nothing to do with the victory, and in fact, the bidding deserved a much worse result that actually achieved. BTW, I used a commercial product made by a third party to generate these results called BridgeBrowser. [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Six spades is cold. To make six spades, WEST has to have 1, 2, or 3 hearts to at least one of the top two cards in that suit, and you must not lose a spade (to four or five to the jack with WEST for instance). The odds of finding hearts ok is only 19% or so. Still, the slam is cold. A success? I guess so. *************- Mamma mia, I never expected that this can be intersting to someone. I even didn't keep track of this Tournament. Of course, I will fulfill my promise to explain the bids of the light version of ForcePoint NFP (Nell's ForcePoint), designed especially for my partner Nell 5 months ago for fun. - Anyone can find it on http://bullbridge.com/generic44.htmlNote: The original version is here on the BBO Forum and also on: http://bullbridge.com/generic45.htmlThe SAYC version using ForcePoint's Counting (C-SAYC) is on: http://bullbridge.com/generic46.html - For all those who do not know the Counting (the Rule of 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1):A = 6 pts, Void = 5 pts, K= 4 pts, Singleton = 3 pts, Q = 2 pts, J = 1 ptNOTE: Singleton A=9 pts, any other Singleton despite of its Honor value = 3 pts - Negative pts: for any 3, 4, 5 cards suits ONLY, without any Control, but with Honor (Q or J) = -1 pt. I f you do not have any Honor(s) at all: -2 pts - The sum of all pts are your Total (T) pts - Your Base number B# = T/4 - 2 - Your Play Level (PL) = sum of both partners B#Play Level Adjustments:PL = PL + 1 for a Trump Super Fit (9+ cards) or for a 2nd side FitPL = PL - 1 for Trump Misfit - Control Points (CP):A = 6 CP, Singleton Ace = 8 CP , King = 4 CP, Void = Singleton = 2 CP (any other Singletons despite their Honor's value = 2 CP) - Slams' requirements:Small Slam: PL >= 6, CP =32-34Grand Slam: PL >= 7, CP = 36+ - How to find your partner's B#:- If your partner bid a new suit, his/her minimum B# = Level s/he bid - 1- If your partner fit your suit on the minimum Level, his/her minimum B# = Level s/he bid - 2, but if s/he fit your suit on upper Level, you do not need to think about her/him B#, because the Level s/he bid shows directly to you the PL by her/him vision (s/he already added your expected B# by the bids you made to her/him B# and adjusted the PL, if necessary)NOTE: To understand the NFP Bidding, you have to read for the opening and the responding bids on http://bullbridge.com/generic44.html . Of course, I will explain any particular bid here for your convinience. A GENERAL NOTE: NFP was banned from BBO ACBL because of its 3 opening bids: - 1♣ = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit, alerted - 1NT = 10+ HCP, any bi-color, alerted - 2♦ = 10+ HCP, unbalanced (with Void), alerted - Although in the General Convention Chart (GCC) which ACBL use, there is nothing spesifically written to forbid this 3 opening bids, Fred Gitelman personally asked me not to use NFP on ACBL. On my contestation to the Central Headquaters of ACBL in US, the answer was, approximately: " ACBL nor approve, nor ban the use of this new system on ACBL Tournaments. The BBO ACBL has its own rights to decide what to do", so what I did: I assured Fred, that we won't use NFP anymore on ACBL Tournaments (and we never used it anymore), and for 2 days I have created the C-SAYC ( Counted SAYC, and published it on: http://bullbridge.com/generic46.html ), which use the usual SAYC bids, but implement the ForcePoint's Counting. It is not too strong like NFP, but if you are discipline bidder, you will know very well when to play 3 in Majors instead of 4, not to mention the Slam games, where the Fp Counting will help you much. I'm still not agree, that NFP didn't apply the requirements by the ACBL GCC, but I do not own the BBO. We also never used the original ForcePoint on ACBL, because its bids are true if conflict with the ACBL GCC requirements. So, long live C-SAYC, it is elementary to apply the Counting, even if your partner do not know for it at all ! - Let me start with the NFP's 12 games bids explanations (I will put them inside this rows) :************My comments here...************ 1st game: Although the guy said on the end of this investigation: "... board one slam was less than 20% chance of success", for any version of ForcePoint it is 100% Slam (PL =6, CP = 32). On the start the guy said: " Six spades is cold". I would say: Six spades is cool ! Obviously opposite opinions. Any way, Fp Counting showed that you MUST play it ! South has 6+2+6+6=20 pts, and B#= 20/4 - 2= B3North has 6+3+4+7=20 pts, and B# =20/4 - 2 = B3PL = B3+B3 = 6 1♣ (B2+, no 5 card suit) - 1♠ (B(0)+, 5 or 6 card suit)4♠ [ Signoff invitation from Nell with B3+B(0)+ ] - 4NT [Control Points (CP) Asking, I had not B(0), but B3, so the PL >= 6]5♠ (12 CP (by steps, the 1st step = 6 CP, any next add 2 CP) - 6♠. NOTE: Nell answered wrong. She has 14 CP and must answer 5NT. She simply forgot that after 4NT the 1st step answer starts from 6 CP, not from 8 CP how it is after 4♣. Because it was new for her ( I have changed it short before the Tournament), I suspected that she answerd starting from 8 CP and went to Slam with 14+18=32 CP and PL >= 6 *****************The results on this hand was…. # Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 6S N HA =========== 11 -50 -11.042 2H S S9 =========== 8 110 -8.353 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.744 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.745 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.746 4S N HA =========== 11 450 -0.747 4S N S6 =========== 11 450 -0.748 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.749 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.7410 4S N C4 =========== 11 450 -0.7411 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7412 3N N S6 =========== 11 460 -0.7413 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7414 3N S H6 =========== 11 460 -0.7415 3N N H4 =========== 11 460 -0.7416 4S N D8 =========== 12 480 0.1317 4S N C4 =========== 12 480 0.1318 4S N S6 =========== 12 480 0.1319 4S N C4 =========== 12 480 0.1320 3N N H4 =========== 12 490 0.2621 3N N H4 =========== 12 490 0.2622 2HX E C6 =========== 4 800 7.1723 6S N HA =========== 12 980 10.3924 6S S S3 Pavell 12 980 10.39 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Four spades is not a very good contract. It has to lose 2H, 2D, 1C, for down two. Even bad defense should hold it to minus one. Getting to 4S on this hand doesn’t seem like it should be the victory it was. Still. Pavell- NellBB are up 17.48 imps after just two boards. In theory, this 4♠ contract should be two away, to reduce the imp score to +4.29 (this poor defense was a huge swing of 12.79 *****************2nd game:North has 2+2-2+6 = 8 pts. B# = 8/4-2 = B(0)South has 10+0+6+1 = 17 pts. B# = 17/4-2 = B2PL = B(0)+B2 = 2 North - SouthPass (less than B1 with 5 card Major suit or bi-color, and less than B2 with any other shape) - 1♠ (B1 to B4, 5 card suit)2♠ (Nell showed min of B(0) because she simply fit the suit with 3+ cards) - 3♠ ( I showed B2 on 3rd level, although I had to pass, because Nell would fit me on upper level, if her B# was higher. If you ask me now why I did this, I simply can not explain it ! Usually I'm not aggressive bidder)4♠ (for my surprise Nell bid 1 more time in the same suit. She is a very aggressive bidder, although I'm trying to calm her, but the guilty was I, because I bid 3♠). - By the way, if your PL = 1, statistically you have almost 90% chance to make 2, because of the finesse options, if your PL = 2, you have 60% chance to make 3, if your PL = 3, you have 30% chance to make 4, if your PL = 4, you have 10% chance to make 5 (that why we prefer to play 4 in Minors with PL = 4), if your PL = 5, you have 20% chance to make 6, if your PL = 6, you have 30% chance to make 7. NOTE: Of course, the opps defense was very weak, but we had nothing to do except to use their mistakes. We had to go 2 down by Fp Counting ! ******************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4S S S5 =========== 8 -100 -5.72 4S S C2 =========== 8 -100 -5.73 4S S S5 =========== 8 -100 -5.74 4S S C9 =========== 9 -50 -4.395 4S S S6 =========== 9 -50 -4.396 4S S HA =========== 9 -50 -4.397 1N N D5 =========== 7 90 -0.968 2S S C9 =========== 8 110 -0.439 2S S S6 =========== 8 110 -0.4310 2S S DK =========== 8 110 -0.4311 3S S DK =========== 9 140 0.4812 3S S S6 =========== 9 140 0.4813 2S S HA =========== 9 140 0.4814 3S S S5 =========== 9 140 0.4815 1N N D4 =========== 9 150 0.4816 3S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4817 2S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4818 3S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4819 2S S S6 =========== 10 170 1.4820 2S S HA =========== 10 170 1.4821 2S S CJ =========== 10 170 1.4822 4S S HA =========== 10 420 7.0923 4S S S5 =========== 10 420 7.0924 4S S S5 Pavell 10 420 7.09 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Ok. Here Pavell’s bidding is good. EW can make 3♦ (6♦+1♥+2♣), so down one in 3♥ (if no double since NS are vul) is about even result. The defense was weak. West got off to the club lead, and seeing dummy, should visualize cash two clubs, get to partner with the diamond ace, ruff a club. This defense sets 3♥ one for a push board at imps. The defense, however slipped when WEST switched at trick two. Still. Pavell- NellBB are up 21.35 imps after just three boards. The poor defense here by EW was a swing of 5.87 imps. With reasonable defense Pavell-NellBB would be at minus -1.18 imps. ***************3rd game:N has 10+6+1+1=18/4-2=B2S has 2+2+3+0=7/4-2= B(0)PL = B2+B(0)+1 (for Trump Super Fit) = 3 East - South - West - NorthPass - Pass - 1♦ - X (B2+, no 5 card suit)1♠ - 2♥ (obviously B(0), although the bid is on 2nd Level, because with B1 South would open 1♥) - Pass -Pass (North would bid 3♥, because of CPC upgrade to B3 (CPC, Control Points Correction, do not ask for it, it is for inner circle only), but decide not to do that)3♦ - 3♥ (with Singleton in opps suit and 6 card suit South decided to risk for 1 down) - All Passed **************** (I forgot to put the results here, sorry) [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This is not exactly a bidding victory for ForcePoint. 4♠ is a horrible contract. It has to lose a spade (at least) regardless how the suit splits, and possible two. A heart loser is a good bet, a diamond loser for sure. And great chances for two club losers. It takes a very aggressive club lead from WEST to let it make. and even then, you have to ignore restricted choice and drop QJ of hearts doubleton offside. No denying it, after the defense let this make, Pavell-NellBB have a tremendous score of + 30.78 imps after four boards. Of course, here was another huge swing caused by the poor defense. Setting 4♠ just one (and two is possible on restricted choice), this would be a swing of 14.65 against the Fp pair, and their imps (with average defense on boards 2,3, and 4 would be -15.83 instead of +31. Here are the results. ****************4th game:N has 10+10+4+6=30/4-2 = B5, with CPC upgrade it goes to B6S has 0-2+3+0=1/4-2 = B(-2)PL = B6+B(-2) - 1 (for Trump Misfit) = 3 South - West - North - Eastpass - pass - 2NT (B5+, balance) - pass3♠ (5 card suit, even with Negative Base after bids of 2NT or up you have to talk) - pass - 4♠ (a try, my partner would have more) - All passed ****************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 3S N HQ =========== 7 -200 -7.482 3H N CT =========== 8 -100 -5.223 3N N D9 =========== 8 -100 -5.224 4H N CT =========== 9 -100 -5.225 3S N HQ =========== 8 -100 -5.226 3S N HQ =========== 8 -100 -5.227 4S N DA =========== 9 -100 -5.228 4H N ST =========== 9 -100 -5.229 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.310 3S N CT =========== 9 140 0.311 3H N CT =========== 9 140 0.312 2S N CT =========== 9 140 0.313 3H N ST =========== 9 140 0.314 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.315 3S N CT =========== 9 140 0.316 3S N HQ =========== 9 140 0.317 3H N CT =========== 9 140 0.318 3H N DJ =========== 10 170 1.1719 3H N CT =========== 10 170 1.1720 3H N CT =========== 10 170 1.1721 4S N DA =========== 10 620 9.4322 4H N C4 =========== 10 620 9.4323 4H N ST =========== 10 620 9.4324 4S S CK Pavell 10 620 9.43 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Ok.. here there is a play for 6♠. It can even make on the current layout, and yet no sniff of squeeze. I am happy however with the four spade contract, and let the +1.59 imp stand as an example of good bridge. Pavell pair up 32.37 imps, and with average defense on earlier hands, would be minus 14.24 **************5th game:N has 6+3+7+9 = 25/4-2 = B4, with CPC upgrade = B5S has 5+0+3-2 = 6/4-2 = B(-1), with CPC upgrade = B(0)PL = B6+B(0) = 6 West - North - East - Southpass - 1NT (B1+, any bi-color) - pass - 2♠ (B(0)+, 3+ card suit for eventualy Fitting)pass - 4♠ (Nell saw max of 5 and decided to bid safety, instead to ask for CP with 4♣ bid. She could do that, but after my answer of 4♦ for 8 CP or less, she, with max of 22 + max 8 = 30 CP, will land on 4♠) - All passed NOTE: I would upgrade my B# to B1, because of CPC, and bid 4NT for CP. This time we will land on 5♠ because of 22+6=28 CP, but I do not like the use of CPC with a Singleton Control, so I passed, too. **************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 4S N CK =========== 9 -50 -9.772 2H W C3 =========== 0 0 03 1S N CK =========== 9 140 -5.734 2S N D2 =========== 11 200 -4.455 3S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.456 2S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.457 2S N CK =========== 11 200 -4.458 3S N CK =========== 12 230 -4.059 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5910 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5911 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5912 4S N D5 =========== 11 450 1.5913 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5914 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5915 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5916 4S N D5 =========== 11 450 1.5917 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5918 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5919 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5920 4S S C3 Pavell 11 450 1.5921 4S N CK =========== 11 450 1.5922 4S N D5 =========== 12 480 2.523 4S N CK =========== 12 480 2.524 6S S S5 =========== 12 980 11.68 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Yuck. A five diamond sacrifice vulnerable versus not vul. This could be a total disaster. Very easy defense can get this down three (2♥, 1♠, 1♣ ruff, king of club), for -800 for Pavell-NellBB pair. That would be huge imp disaster. The defense went, let’s just say, horribly wrong, and beat it only one. So Pavell picked up 5.61 imps, for an astounding 37.98 imps. But if the defense just beat this two, which is clearly easy, this is a swing of 9.44 imps (it could be a much much larger swing of around 17 imps…. This is not impressive. *************6th game:N has 3+0+1+9=13/4-2 = B1S has 4+4+10-2= 16/4-2 = B2♣PL = B1+B2+1 (for ♣ Super Fit) + 1 (for ♦ side Fit) = 5♦PL =B1+B2+1 (for ♣ side Fit) = 4 NOTE: The PL's method is statistically extracted. How the opps cards are, the ♦ are better Trump suit. That why the ForcePoint Counting has not 100% accuracy, but 83+% only. North - East - South - West1♦ (a mistake opening by Nell which must be done with B2, 5+ cards. The right opening is 1NT with B1+, any bi-color) - 1♠ - 4♦ (I had B2, so the PL for me was was 4) - 4♠5♦ (sacrifise for 2 down by Nell. By the wrong opening we were prevented to discover the ♣ Super Fit) - All Passed *************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4SX E C7 =========== 11 -690 -7.652 4SX E DA =========== 11 -690 -7.653 5CX N DJ =========== 9 -500 -3.834 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.355 5S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.356 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.357 4S E DK =========== 11 -450 -2.358 4S E DK =========== 11 -450 -2.359 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.3510 4S E DA =========== 11 -450 -2.3511 4S E C4 =========== 11 -450 -2.3512 4S E C4 =========== 11 -450 -2.3513 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6514 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6515 4S E DK =========== 10 -420 -1.6516 4S E DA =========== 10 -420 -1.6517 5C N DJ =========== 7 -400 -0.8318 5CX S S4 =========== 10 -200 3.4819 5CX N DJ =========== 10 -200 3.4820 3S E DA =========== 11 -200 3.4821 5D N SA NellBB 10 -100 5.6122 5SX E DA =========== 10 100 923 6SX E DA =========== 11 100 924 5C S S4 =========== 11 600 13.65 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Another less than great contract. To be fair to ForcePoint the field bid 3NT and made it. But the defense to set 3NT is easy. On the heart queen lead and duck in dummy (which is what happens here), East only need to win the ace and return it. Declarer will probably go down two (hoping EAST has club ace) rather than give up down one when diamonds turn out to be 5-1. Still, we will figure best defense is down one… so instead of the +5.39 imps Forcepoint picks up here, it should lose 7.1, yet another game swing value of +12.48. So Pavell-Neibb increase their lead to +43.37, but could easily with normal defense be minus 36.16. Here are the results. *************7th game:N has 10+0+0+2=12/4-2 = B1S has 2+4+12+4=22/4-2 = B3PL = B1+B3+1 (for ♣ Super Fit) = 5 (in the ♣ suit)NT PL = suit's PL - 1 (statistically extracted. NOTE: Can be less if you do not have the necessary Stoppers) East - South - West - Northpass - 1♣ (B1 to B4, no 5 card suit) - pass - 2♣ (B1, 5 cards suit)3♣ - 3♦ [b2+ (because of 3rd Level bid of new suit), 4 card suit] - pass - 3NT (Nell choose to play NT, promosing Stoppers in the Majors)All Passed *************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 2HX E DA =========== n9 -870 -15.042 2HX E DA =========== 8 -670 -13.483 3N N HQ =========== 6 -300 -9.744 3N N HQ =========== 7 -200 -8.35 5D S S5 =========== 9 -200 -8.36 3S E DA =========== 9 -140 -7.787 1H E DA =========== 8 -110 -7.098 4H E DA =========== 9 100 -4.659 4HX E DQ =========== 8 500 2.3510 4HX E DA =========== 8 500 2.3511 4HX E DA =========== o8 500 2.3512 4SX E DA =========== 8 500 2.3513 5C S HA =========== 11 600 4.5714 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3915 3N S D7 =========== 10 630 5.3916 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3917 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3918 3N S D2 =========== 10 630 5.3919 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3920 3N S D2 =========== 10 630 5.3921 3N S D3 =========== 10 630 5.3922 3N N HQ NellBB 10 630 5.3923 3N S D3 =========== 11 660 5.9624 3N S CT =========== 11 660 5.96 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] Five clubs is yet another overbid for ForcePoint. Guess we are all surprised with the defense couldn’t find a way to allow this to make. Finally a minus imp score for the Forcepoint pair (lose 3.43 imps) for a total of +39.94. This is an interesting score, because with just normal defense on the game hands from above, this 3 imp lose here would mean the forcepoint score could be -39.59 imps. *************8th game:N has 4+7+3-2=12/4-2 = B1S has 6-2-2+12=14/4-2 = B1, with CPC upgrade = B2PL = B1+B2+1 (for ♣ Super Fit) = 4 South - West - North - East1♣ (B2 to B4, no 5 card suit) - 2♦ - 3♣ (for Nell the PL was 3, if we have Fit in ♣) - pass5♣ (with the ♣ Super Fit I knew the PL is 4, but decided to risk for 1 Down) - All Passed *************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 3D W C2 =========== 10 -130 -5.32 2D W S6 =========== 8 -90 -4.483 2H S DA =========== 7 -50 -3.434 4S N D3 =========== 9 -50 -3.435 5C S C4 Pavell 10 -50 -3.436 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.617 4D W CT =========== 9 50 -0.618 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.619 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.6110 3D W CT =========== 8 50 -0.6111 3D E CA =========== 8 50 -0.6112 3D W C2 =========== 8 50 -0.6113 4D W C2 =========== 8 100 0.9614 3DX W C2 =========== 8 100 0.9615 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6116 3C S HQ =========== 10 130 1.6117 4C S SJ =========== 10 130 1.6118 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6119 4C S DA =========== 10 130 1.6120 3S S C8 =========== 9 140 2.0421 3S N DK =========== 9 140 2.0422 3S N D3 =========== 9 140 2.0423 4H E CK =========== 7 150 2.3524 4DX W CT =========== 8 300 5.91 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv]Ok Pavell’s opponents found their 4-2 heart fit AFTER they found a diamond fit. This time Pavell deserved to be lucky. I wonder how the bidding would have gone if West had rebid 3D instead of 3H. We may never know. 3H down two was a nice pickup for Pavell- NellBB of 1.65 imps for +41.59 imps (could be -37.94. Here are the results. *************9th game:N has -2+1+0+4=3/4-2 = B(-1)S has 8+6+6+0=20/4-2 = B3PL = B(-1)+B3+1 (for ♠ Super Fit) = 3 West - North - East - South1♦ - Pass (B1 or less, no Major 5 card suit) - 2♦ - 2♠ [b2+ (after partner's Pass your B# must be at least equal to the Level you bid]3♥ - All passed (with Negative Base the best thing you can do is to Pass if your partner didn't show at least B4+) *************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl T r Score Pts1 4SX S CA =========== 7 -800 -14.042 5S S D4 =========== 9 -200 -7.093 3D W S9 =========== 9 -110 -5.264 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.135 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.136 3S S CA =========== 8 -100 -5.137 3D W S4 =========== 8 50 -2.178 2N W S9 =========== 6 100 -0.79 2N W S9 =========== 6 100 -0.710 2S S CA =========== 8 110 -0.6511 2S S CA =========== 8 110 -0.6512 2S S D4 =========== 8 110 -0.6513 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2614 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2615 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2616 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2617 3S S D4 =========== 9 140 0.2618 3S S CA =========== 9 140 0.2619 3H W S9 (your opp) 5 200 1.6520 4DX W S4 ========== 8 300 3.6521 5DX W S9 ========== 8 500 7.4822 3SX S D4 ========== 29 730 10.723 3SX S D9 ========== 9 730 10.724 5DX W S4 ========== 7 800 11.57 [/font][hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] 1♣ is probably as good as any for you. The defense let you make (good defense can hold you to 3♣, 1♦, 1♥ and 1♠, and EW could have balanced and played 2 or 3 spades. But this might be a plus of forcepoint. EW might pass 1♣ hoping it would be better for them than bidding on. This raises the score to +43.94 (it could be -35.59) **************10th game:N has -2-2+4-2=-2/4-2 = B(-2)S has 9+6+2+6=23/4-2 = B4PL = B(-2)+B4-1 (for ♠ Misfit) = 1 North - East - South - Westpass - pass - 1♣ (B2 to B4, no 5 card suit) - All Passed (with deep Negative Base, Pass even with eventually bad Fit, usually the opps will talk, do not worry) **************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 2N W S3 ========== 9 -150 -3.482 2S E HA ========== 9 -140 -3.33 1S W H2 ========== 9 -140 -3.34 2N E C9 ========== 8 -120 -2.615 1N E D3 ========== 8 -120 -2.616 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.397 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.398 2S W D5 ========== 8 -110 -2.399 2S E D3 ========== 8 -110 -2.3910 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.3911 2S E DQ ========== 8 -110 -2.3912 2S E DJ ========== 8 -110 -2.3913 1N N S4 ========== 6 -100 -2.2614 1C S D4 ========== 7 70 2.3515 1D S D2 ========== 7 70 2.3516 1C S D2 Pavell 7 70 2.3517 1D S S2 ========== 8 90 2.8718 1N N S4 ========== 7 90 2.8719 1D S C5 ========== 8 90 2.8720 2S E D3 ========== 7 100 321 3S E D3 ========== 8 100 322 3S W D5 ========== 8 100 323 1DX S D4 ========== 7 140 4.0924 3CX W H2 ========== 8 200 5.57 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] EW bid their game, and cost 40.03 (could be minus 39.5). *************11th game:N has 2+10+5-2=15/4-2 = B2S has 0+2+0+5=7/4-2 = B(0)PL = B2+B(0)+1 (for ♥ Super Fit) = 3 East - South - West - North1♦ - pass - 2♦ - 2♠ (at least B2+, because of the partner's Pass, 5 card suit)5♦ - All Passed (the PL for me was 2 or max 3) *************Here are the results of board 11.# Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 5DX E H5 =========== 11 -550 -7.392 5HX S DA =========== 8 -500 -6.173 5D E C7 =========== 12 -420 -4.614 5D E C5 =========== 12 -420 -4.615 5D E C5 =========== 12 -420 -4.616 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.917 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.918 5D E H7 =========== 11 -400 -3.919 5D E H6 =========== 11 -400 -3.9110 5D E H6 =========== 11 -400 -3.9111 5D E ST =========== 11 -400 -3.9112 5D E ST wascana 11 -400 -3.9113 5D E H5 =========== 11 -400 -3.9114 4HX S DA =========== 48 -300 -1.5715 3D E H5 =========== 11 -150 1.6116 4D E ST =========== 11 -150 1.6117 3D E H6 =========== 11 -150 1.6118 3H S DA =========== 28 -50 3.6519 6D E H5 =========== 11 50 5.5720 6D E H5 =========== 11 50 5.5721 3N W HA =========== 8 50 5.5722 4H S H4 =========== 10 420 10.5723 4SX N DK =========== 10 590 12.2624 4HX S H4 =========== 10 590 12.26 [hv=d=w&v=n&n=skq2hqj93da95ckqt&w=s93hk86dj643c9875&e=sj76hat742dqt8c42&s=sat854h5dk72caj63]399|300|Scoring: IMPBoard one. West North East South Pass 1♣ Pass 1♠ Pass 4♠ Pass 4NT Pass 5♠ Pass 6♠ Pass Pass Pass [/hv] This is another hand the opponents controlled, and they went down an extra trick, but ok.. another +3.91 imps for Pavell, but with average defense on the overbid hands, could easily be minus 35.59. *************12th game:N has 6+4+0+4=14/4-2 = B1, with CPC upgrade B2S has 0+1+6+0=7/4-2 = B(0)PL = B2+B(0)-1 (for ♥ Misfit) = 1 South - West - North - EastPass - pass - Pass (a mistake, Nell obviously didn't use the CPC upgrade) - 1♣Pass - 1♠ - Pass - 2♣Pass - 2♦ - Pass - 3♣All Passed *************The results on this hand was….# Contr Ld Decl Tr Score Pts1 3N W D9 =========== 10 -630 -11.612 3N E H5 =========== 9 -600 -11.433 2S W S3 =========== 10 -170 -5.434 2N W D9 =========== 8 -120 -4.35 3C E H5 =========== 9 -110 -3.526 1NX N CQ =========== 6 -100 -3.437 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.178 3N E D5 =========== 8 100 1.179 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1710 3N E HT =========== 8 100 1.1711 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1712 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1713 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1714 2C E DA =========== 8 100 1.1715 4S W H3 =========== 9 100 1.1716 3N E D7 =========== 8 100 1.1717 4S W SA =========== 8 100 1.1718 3N E H5 =========== 8 100 1.1719 3N E H5 =========== 7 200 3.9120 3N E D8 =========== 7 200 3.9121 3N E D5 =========== 7 200 3.9122 3C E D4 wascana 7 200 3.9123 2N E H5 =========== 7 200 3.9124 3N W H6 =========== 6 300 6.09 A winning 42 imp score, but could be a next to last place -36 imps, and this doesn't even count the fact that board one slam was less than 20% chance of success. The Forcepoint page hold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 With a King and a Singleton = 6 CP, the response will be 4♣ - What South knows now: the PL = 5 and CP 32, so s/he will continue with the Relay of 4♦ for the 5 card suit, then for the 4 card suit, all natural. South - West - North - East1♣ (B2+, any shape)- 3♠ - Pass (B(0) or less) - PassX (Relay for CP) - Pass - 4♣ (6 CP) - Pass4♦ - Pass - 4♥ (2 or 5 card Basic suit, length preference) - Pass4♠ - Pass - 5♣ (4 card suit) - Pass6♣ (if partner's 4 card suit was ♦, we would play 5♦, but now with 32 CP and PL = 6, because of the SuperFit, I must go to 6)Okay, so you're at 4♣ with neither partner having shown shape information. Good thing you were able to stumble into a club fit. So if responder had 6 hearts and no other 4-card suit I assume he would bid 5♥ over the 4♠ relay? - You assume wrong. If North has 6 ♥ s/he will use the 2nd part of SCOR-SCOR Convention. After 4♠ that will be 4th or upper steps depending on the distribution, so the Quest will be able to choose the best Fit, if it exist at all. But after the overcall of 3♠, the statistically chances are more than enough. - Of coure, all can go to hell. That way ForcePoint Counting/Bidding is not advertised with 100% contract assurance, but 83+% only, still enough to overpower the most system. To be successfull against ForcePoint, you will need a system full of difficult for remembering gatgets, something close to the system which the Argentinians Madala - Ravena use, but do not expect more than 1-5% difference. And if the match is not alone, be sure that ForcePoint will answer appropriate. - There are some magazines with the Bidding Box games: ACBL Bulletin, The Bridge World and etc. To understand the power of Fp, check the system using them. You will be able to compare immediately its results with the World Class Players results. The Fp bids are strictly synonimous, so it doesn't matter, that you will be the only one for the pairs bids. If someting goes wrong ask me to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 >A GENERAL NOTE: NFP was banned from BBO ACBL because of its 3 opening bids:>>- 1♣ = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit, alerted>- 1NT = 10+ HCP, any bi-color, alerted>- 2♦ = 10+ HCP, unbalanced (with Void), alerted>>- Although in the General Convention Chart (GCC) which ACBL use, there is nothing >spesifically written to forbid this 3 opening bids... One important comment: The ACBL's GCC is specifically constructed as a list of approved conventions. If a convention is not explictly sanctioned by the GCC, then it is banned. I've had a number of run ins with the ACBL's Conventions Committee over the years including a couple when Fred was a member. I always found Fred to be one of the most reasonable/flexible members of that committee. With this said and done, there really isn't any room for flexibility on this one. The methods clearly are not permitted at the GCC level... With this said and done, there are any number of people on BBO using equally artifical methods. A number of use are having a match on Sunday. Feel free to wander by if you have a partner familiar with the system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 Yes, I know moscito and most of the club and diamond based systems. I have even tried forcing pass. So the aritificial match doesn't interest me much. But I would drop by if Fp was played.... One of two things would happen. FP would be worldclass and I would learn something, or Fp would be a disaster. Either way, an educational time would be had. ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 You simply are suspisious, that ForcePoint will be weak on preemtive. Why? You didn't checked it. Obviously you do not like the fact, that somewhere around can persist a system that is better on preemptive than the systems you know. You do not need a system that will shake your basic bridge imagination. Let's decide what to do. Close your eyes and forget about it. I'll readily admit that I have some "issues" with ForcePoint: Issue 1: ForcePoint's hand evaluatation system is complex. Coupled with this, the hand evaluation structure is not particularly accurate. The score generated by your hand evaluation system is worse than a number of less complex methods. Issue 2: Rather than responding this critique you have essentially ignored it while making grandious if not impossible claims about the accuracy of your system. A claim that you will "never" miss a slam isn't an impressive one. Exagerations like this one suggest snake oil. Issue 3: Your postings about ForcePoint are [essentially] a commercial for a series of products that you are selling. I very much enjoy debating bidding theory. However, I dislike commercial advertizement on education forums. Before I invest the time and money required to learn your system, you really need to demonstrate that its worthwhile for me to do so. The single most "impressive" thing that you could do would be demonstrate that you have a sound "foundation". Demonstrate that your hand evaluation methods are worth their complexity... - If the adding of whole umbers for the HCP, Controls and Distribution pts, division by 4, subtracting 2, such finding your B#, then adding both partners B# to find your particular Play Level in the FIT suit is A COMPLEX THING for you, I'm helpless. Better use my advice to forget about Fp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 >A GENERAL NOTE: NFP was banned from BBO ACBL because of its 3 opening bids:>>- 1♣ = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit, alerted>- 1NT = 10+ HCP, any bi-color, alerted>- 2♦ = 10+ HCP, unbalanced (with Void), alerted>>- Although in the General Convention Chart (GCC) which ACBL use, there is nothing >spesifically written to forbid this 3 opening bids... One important comment: The ACBL's GCC is specifically constructed as a list of approved conventions. If a convention is not explictly sanctioned by the GCC, then it is banned. I've had a number of run ins with the ACBL's Conventions Committee over the years including a couple when Fred was a member. I always found Fred to be one of the most reasonable/flexible members of that committee. With this said and done, there really isn't any room for flexibility on this one. The methods clearly are not permitted at the GCC level... With this said and done, there are any number of people on BBO using equally artifical methods. A number of use are having a match on Sunday. Feel free to wander by if you have a partner familiar with the system... - NFP wasn't banned because of using an unlisted convention(s) by the ACBL GCC, because the system doesn't use any conventions at all. If you call the opening bid of 1♣ convention, even in the form NFP use it (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), , especially when it not require even any answer, that's is your problem (or maybe on ACBL). I'm curiuos if we have read different ACBL GCC ? Except for the Relay opening (tell me more), there wasn't nothing else about any conventions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 - NFP wasn't banned because of using an unlisted convention(s) by the ACBL GCC, because the system doesn't use any conventions at all. If you call the opening bid of 1♣ convention, even in the form NFP use it (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), , especially when it not require even any answer, that's is your problem (or maybe on ACBL). I'm curiuos if we have read different ACBL GCC ? Except for the Relay opening (tell me more), there wasn't nothing else about any conventions. Opening 1♣ on any 10+ hand without a five card suit (and hence, maybe as few as one club), is perfectly legal by the GCC, as long as you alert maybe short. The one club in this system is not even forcing, despite being as few as two. I doubt anyone has any problem with the 1♣ opening bid per se. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 NFP wasn't banned because of using an unlisted convention(s) by the ACBL GCC, because the system doesn't use any conventions at all. If you call the opening bid of 1♣ convention, even in the form NFP use it (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), , especially when it not require even any answer, that's is your problem (or maybe on ACBL). I'm curiuos if we have read different ACBL GCC ? Except for the Relay opening (tell me more), there wasn't nothing else about any conventions. I have no problem with people making dogmatic statements, however, it gets annoying when said statements are this divorced from reality... Comment 1: The term "Convention" is clearly defined in the Laws of Bridge. These are available at http://www.math.aau.dk/~nwp/bridge/laws/laws97e/, however for convenience, I will provide the following quote: Convention 1. A call that, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning other than willingness to play in the denomination named (or in the last denomination named), or high-card strength or length (three cards or more) there. However, an agreement as to overall strength does not make a call a convention. 2. Defender's play that serves to convey a meaning by agreement rather than inference. Based on this definition, your 1♣, 1NT, and 2♦ are clearly Conventions. Comment 2: As I noted before, the ACBL's GCC has a fairly logical construction: First: The ACBL specifically defines "Natural Bids". In doing so, the ACBL expliclty sanctions use of these bids. [Regulatory authorities have the right to control the use of Conventions but not natural bids] Second: The GCC specifically notes that "Unless specifically allowed, methods are disallowed". Third: The GCC specifically licenses a restricted number of Conventions. It should be noted that (A) The GCC permits the use of an "all purpose 1♣ or 1♦ opening promsing a minimum to 10 HCP. Furthermore, the GCC permts the use of convention responses to a strong (15+ HCP) 1♣ opening.(B) The GCC does not sanction a conventional NT opening that shows any two suited hand pattern with 10+ HCP© The GCC does not sanction a conventional 2♦ opening showing an unbalanced hand with a void It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 NFP wasn't banned because of using an unlisted convention(s) by the ACBL GCC, because the system doesn't use any conventions at all. If you call the opening bid of 1♣ convention, even in the form NFP use it (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), , especially when it not require even any answer, that's is your problem (or maybe on ACBL). I'm curiuos if we have read different ACBL GCC ? Except for the Relay opening (tell me more), there wasn't nothing else about any conventions. I have no problem with people making dogmatic statements, however, it gets annoying when said statements are this divorced from reality... Comment 1: The term "Convention" is clearly defined in the Laws of Bridge. These are available at http://www.math.aau.dk/~nwp/bridge/laws/laws97e/, however for convenience, I will provide the following quote: Convention 1. A call that, by partnership agreement, conveys a meaning other than willingness to play in the denomination named (or in the last denomination named), or high-card strength or length (three cards or more) there. However, an agreement as to overall strength does not make a call a convention. 2. Defender's play that serves to convey a meaning by agreement rather than inference. Based on this definition, your 1♣, 1NT, and 2♦ are clearly Conventions. Comment 2: As I noted before, the ACBL's GCC has a fairly logical construction: First: The ACBL specifically defines "Natural Bids". In doing so, the ACBL expliclty sanctions use of these bids. [Regulatory authorities have the right to control the use of Conventions but not natural bids] Second: The GCC specifically notes that "Unless specifically allowed, methods are disallowed". Third: The GCC specifically licenses a restricted number of Conventions. It should be noted that (A) The GCC permits the use of an "all purpose 1♣ or 1♦ opening promsing a minimum to 10 HCP. Furthermore, the GCC permts the use of convention responses to a strong (15+ HCP) 1♣ opening.(:angry: The GCC does not sanction a conventional NT opening that shows any two suited hand pattern with 10+ HCP© The GCC does not sanction a conventional 2♦ opening showing an unbalanced hand with a void It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. - Thanks. That why I believed Fred, when he emailed me to drop NFP from ACBL in the future. But you found more time to explain all this things clearly. Thank you for your efford. Any way, even with your explanations, all this looks like sophism for me. Obviously, I'm unable to understand too well English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. - If it is true, that means only one: even the light version of ForcePoint, Nell's ForcePoint, is a dangerous system, let kill it before it is born. The simple fact, that in comparision with SAYC, ForcePoint is easier on Slams, sometimes even better, is already open danger for the SAYC supporters. Any way, I'm not interesting anymore of NFP - SAYC competition on ACBL . With the 12 games, which NFP won on ACBL, at least Ben showed not only to me, that the ACBL players level of competition can be very low. - Now I'm making something about the SAYC alone. Although it is not complitely finished, C-SAYC already works better tham the regular SAYC. The bids are the same, only the Counting and the Control Asking are modified for good. - Let's make SAYC dangerous system, too ! - Anyone can find C-SAYC on http://bullbridge.com/generic46.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. I should have been more clear: The 1♣ opening is allowed at the GCC level, however, all responses other than 1♦ must be natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. I should have been more clear: The 1♣ opening is allowed at the GCC level, however, all responses other than 1♦ must be natural. - After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are more than Natural:- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card suit, if you have enough HCP) - There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. I should have been more clear: The 1♣ opening is allowed at the GCC level, however, all responses other than 1♦ must be natural. - After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are more than Natural:- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card suit, if you have enough HCP) - There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! What do you bid with a 4441 hand and 10+ HCP? If it's 1NT, the 1NT isn't natural... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 It seems quite clear that none of these openings are licensed by the GCC.. The one club opening bid describing any 10+ hand (well not any 10+ hand, but many 10+ hands) without a five card suit is. And indeed, pavell and his partner pass the 1♣ opening bid from time time to time. so it must be "natural" to me.... even if it might have only one club. BTW, one pair I know plays 1♦ promises 5+ diamonds, along with five card majors, so they open 1♣ even wiht 4441 hands.. .the acbl people don't seem to mind one bit. I should have been more clear: The 1♣ opening is allowed at the GCC level, however, all responses other than 1♦ must be natural. - After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are more than Natural:- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card suit, if you have enough HCP) - There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! What do you bid with a 4441 hand and 10+ HCP? If it's 1NT, the 1NT isn't natural... - Of course, 1♣ = 10+, no 5 card suit, alerted. I'm using 1NT opening bid for 10+, any bi-color, alerted, and the response is 3+ card suit for attempt to find a Fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 What do you bid with a 4441 hand and 10+ HCP? If it's 1NT, the 1NT isn't natural... - Of course, 1♣ = 10+, no 5 card suit, alerted. I'm using 1NT opening bid for 10+, any bi-color, alerted, and the response is 3+ card suit for attempt to find a Fit. Let me try again... If partner opens 1♣, what do you respond with 4441 shape and 10+ HCP? Earlier you stated >- After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are >more than Natural:>- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards>- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card >suit, if you have enough HCP)>- There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! If you include 4441 hands in your 1NT response (and I think that you have to), then your 1NT is clearly conventional Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 What do you bid with a 4441 hand and 10+ HCP? If it's 1NT, the 1NT isn't natural... - Of course, 1♣ = 10+, no 5 card suit, alerted. I'm using 1NT opening bid for 10+, any bi-color, alerted, and the response is 3+ card suit for attempt to find a Fit. Let me try again... If partner opens 1♣, what do you respond with 4441 shape and 10+ HCP? Earlier you stated >- After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are >more than Natural:>- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards>- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card >suit, if you have enough HCP)>- There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! If you include 4441 hands in your 1NT response (and I think that you have to), then your 1NT is clearly conventional I wonder... If you open 1NT naturally with 4441 hands (as I have seen plenty of experts do), is that a "convention"? I know there is a big difference between opening 1NT with the occassional singleton and responding 1NT promising a singleton. But this seems a question of fairness... If 1NT opening (as natural) is allowed with 4441 hands, would 1NT responses showing an unknown 4441 and (this is important), 1NT is not forcing in any way, is that allowed as "natural"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 I wonder... If you open 1NT naturally with 4441 hands (as I have seen plenty of experts do), is that a "convention"? I know there is a big difference between opening 1NT with the occassional singleton and responding 1NT promising a singleton. But this seems a question of fairness... If 1NT opening (as natural) is allowed with 4441 hands, would 1NT responses showing an unknown 4441 and (this is important), 1NT is not forcing in any way, is that allowed as "natural"? The ACBL regulatory structure attempts to allow players to excercise judgement in a variety of cases. For example, players are able to excercise descretion and upgrade/downgrade hand strength. Equivalently, the ACBL recognizes that it is occasionally best to treat exceptional unbalanced hands as if they were balanced. For example, playing a 15-17 NT, a hand such as KAT94AQ4KJ983 presents a number of problems in a traditional 5 card major based system. If the auction starts 1♣ - 1♠, opener is stuck for a rebid and a 1NT opening is the least of all evils. However, as you yourself note, allowing lattitude for this type of exception is VERY different than allowing "natural" NT openings of any 4441 or 5431 hand pattern. As I recall, the word "exception" is even used in phrasing the appropriate regulations. Its interesting to note that there are specific areas where the ACBL does not allow players to apply judgement. For example, players may not exercise judgement to upgrade exception 9 counts and treat them as a 10-12 NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 What do you bid with a 4441 hand and 10+ HCP? If it's 1NT, the 1NT isn't natural... - Of course, 1♣ = 10+, no 5 card suit, alerted. I'm using 1NT opening bid for 10+, any bi-color, alerted, and the response is 3+ card suit for attempt to find a Fit. Let me try again... If partner opens 1♣, what do you respond with 4441 shape and 10+ HCP? Earlier you stated >- After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), the NFP responses are >more than Natural:>- any suit bid = 7+ HCP, 5+ cards>- NT bid or Double = 10+ HCP, no 5 card suit (then you can show your 4 card >suit, if you have enough HCP)>- There is not even a single non-natural response in NFP at all ! If you include 4441 hands in your 1NT response (and I think that you have to), then your 1NT is clearly conventional I wonder... If you open 1NT naturally with 4441 hands (as I have seen plenty of experts do), is that a "convention"? I know there is a big difference between opening 1NT with the occassional singleton and responding 1NT promising a singleton. But this seems a question of fairness... If 1NT opening (as natural) is allowed with 4441 hands, would 1NT responses showing an unknown 4441 and (this is important), 1NT is not forcing in any way, is that allowed as "natural"? - Yes, NFP's response to 1♣ opening with 4441 is 1NT, alerted (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), but it is not mention in ACBL GCC like forbiden response, when alerted. With this shape, it is the only possible way to show to my partner, that I do not have any 5 card suit. What about the SAYC responses of 1NT to 1♠ / 1♥ with a Void or a Singleton in the opening Major suit. Are they Conventions, too ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted December 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 I wonder... If you open 1NT naturally with 4441 hands (as I have seen plenty of experts do), is that a "convention"? I know there is a big difference between opening 1NT with the occassional singleton and responding 1NT promising a singleton. But this seems a question of fairness... If 1NT opening (as natural) is allowed with 4441 hands, would 1NT responses showing an unknown 4441 and (this is important), 1NT is not forcing in any way, is that allowed as "natural"? The ACBL regulatory structure attempts to allow players to excercise judgement in a variety of cases. For example, players are able to excercise descretion and upgrade/downgrade hand strength. Equivalently, the ACBL recognizes that it is occasionally best to treat exceptional unbalanced hands as if they were balanced. For example, playing a 15-17 NT, a hand such as KAT94AQ4KJ983 presents a number of problems in a traditional 5 card major based system. If the auction starts 1♣ - 1♠, opener is stuck for a rebid and a 1NT opening is the least of all evils. However, as you yourself note, allowing lattitude for this type of exception is VERY different than allowing "natural" NT openings of any 4441 or 5431 hand pattern. As I recall, the word "exception" is even used in phrasing the appropriate regulations. Its interesting to note that there are specific areas where the ACBL does not allow players to apply judgement. For example, players may not exercise judgement to upgrade exception 9 counts and treat them as a 10-12 NT. - Nice. But NFP doesn't use 1NT opening for the mentioned hand of 4441 and 5431 shapes. After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), alerted, it uses 1NT responding with 4441 (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit, too), also alerted. Is that forbiden by ACBL GCC ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 - Nice. But NFP doesn't use 1NT opening for the mentioned hand of 4441 and 5431 shapes. After 1♣ opening (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit), alerted, it uses 1NT responding with 4441 (10+ HCP, no 5 card suit, too), also alerted. Is that forbiden by ACBL GCC ? For the third time! The auction 1♣ - 1NT shows 10+ HCP and denies a 5+ card suit. This response is not natural.This response is not specifically sanctioned by the GCCTherefore, this response is not permitted in GCC level events This isn't rocket science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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