A New System. Do you need it ?

[Free]

Richard, as I said: "it's VERY unlikely". I didn't say this would be the auction, just that we CAN find it in impossible conditions (relaying, opps quiet all the time,...) B)

 

To Pavel: yes, South has the requirements of a MOSCITO 1♠ opening. He needs 6 SP or 5 SP with at least 10 cards in 2 suits (which he has). Usually openings contain around 9-14, but some rare 7 HCP hands can open (AK and 10 cards in 2 suits), and sometimes an 8 HCP hand can also open (like the one I posted).

 

For those who don't know: SP (Slam Points): A=3, K=2, Q=1, singleton K or Q doesn't count, at least 10 cards in 2 suits = +1SP.

[tysen2k]

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

[Pavell]

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

[Pavell]

Ok, here's a constructed hand with 6♦ available despite 3 Aces outside.  Combined HCP is only 13, so suppose opps are quiet  ;)

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ 5432 ♥ [space] ♦ JT9876 ♣ KJ2 ♠ [space] ♥ 5432 ♦ AQ5432 ♣ Q32

 

In MOSCITO you can find it if you keep on asking, but it's VERY unlikely!  It would be:

(South - North)

1♠ - 1NT

2♥ - 2♠

2NT - 3♣

3♥ - 3♠

3NT - 4♣

4♥ - 6♦

 

1♠ shows 4+♦ unbalanced (9-14 HCP)

2♥ shows 6+♦ and 4 poor ♥s

2NT shows short ♠s

3♥ shows 0-4-6-3

3NT shows 5 SP

4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦ and 0 tophonours in ♥

6♦ rightsiding the contract, the unknown hand will play  B)

(north only relays)

A MUCH more likely auction is

 

1♠ - (P) - 5♦

 

Relay auctions are a losing proposition holding minimum hands with a long fit.

Responder should get his hand off his chest with a single bid and place the maximum pressure on the opponents.

- That's true, if you do not expect Slams, or want to preempt, but I prefer to hear what the opps could say, because their bids not only will supply information, but will help ForcePoint's Bidding. That's way I do not think the Relay bids are lossing proposition in this case

[hrothgar]

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Partner has just made a limited opening bid showing 4+ Diamonds and ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

 

I hold:

 

♠ 5432

♥ Void

♦ JT9876

♣ KJ5

 

From my perspective:

 

1. I don't expect a slam to make and I am prepared to pay off it it does

2. I want to jam the auction as much as possible and force the last quess on the opponents

 

As usual, I advocate a mixed strategy and would randomize across the following set of bids with the following approximate percentages:

 

3D = 10%

3NT = 15%

3H = 15%

4D = 15%

5D = 45%

[Flame]

Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

I'll tell you why, its because your system is not the only one in the world, there are lots of them, infact nothing in your system is new, most of the systems face te same problems, and one of those problem, is how much you can load on the 1c bid to take off from the other bids, some things it should be 17+ some 16+ and moscito is trying 15+ but the players of it "complained" more then once that its very vulnarable to interference, and now you come out of now were with 1c=B2 and claim you can handle it without a problem, we dont have to know this specific system, to know that its not true.

[tysen2k]

There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Actually I did read a lot of your pages. The 10+ HCP is actually a quote from your own webpage:

 

1c = B2+, any shape (for the opps: 10+ HCP, any shape, ALERT)

 

I was just using what you wrote as I'm guessing an "approximate strength" so that everyone can have a general idea about how strong a hand we're talking about. I know that B2 does not equal 10 HCP, it's just approximate.

 

But the fact is that you cannot just make a sweeping arguement that your system can totally handle all preemption up to 3NT. It's just so glaringly false. If I'm wrong then give us some good examples with opponent preemption.

 

Tysen

[Pavell]

I'm trying to decypher some of the bid meanings for your system so I may have this wrong, but it seems that the system would be very vulnerable to preemption.

1♣(B2+, any shape)

This is essentially what, 10+ HCP any shape? I can see how this might get good results when the opponents don't come in, but how would this do against breathing opponents? A good system doesn't just win bidding contests.

- There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Partner has just made a limited opening bid showing 4+ Diamonds and ~ 9 - 14 HCP.

 

I hold:

 

♠ 5432

♥ Void

♦ JT9876

♣ KJ5

 

From my perspective:

 

1. I don't expect a slam to make and I am prepared to pay off it it does

2. I want to jam the auction as much as possible and force the last quess on the opponents

 

As usual, I advocate a mixed strategy and would randomize across the following set of bids with the following approximate percentages:

 

3D = 10%

3NT = 15%

3H = 15%

4D = 15%

5D = 45%

- I do not understand, why you publish it here? There nothing in connection with ForcePoint. Bid what you want. You NEVER will be sure for what you did. When my partner open, I know his minimum B#. Suppose he open 1♦. That will be B2,B3, 6+ ♦ suit ot bi-color with 0-3 cards in ♦. With the hand you showed, which B# = Zero, I alredy know what we have, and up to what level we can go to play or to sacrifise.

[Pavell]

There is no problem with the preemptive at all, if they are below 3NT. B2 means Base # of 2, and do not have fixed HCP. ForcePoint doesn't work with HCP. It use Controls, HCP, Distributions, Negative, and transfer all of them to Base number. The sum of both partners B#s will give the Play Level for any particular bid. Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

Actually I did read a lot of your pages. The 10+ HCP is actually a quote from your own webpage:

 

1c = B2+, any shape (for the opps: 10+ HCP, any shape, ALERT)

 

I was just using what you wrote as I'm guessing an "approximate strength" so that everyone can have a general idea about how strong a hand we're talking about. I know that B2 does not equal 10 HCP, it's just approximate.

 

But the fact is that you cannot just make a sweeping arguement that your system can totally handle all preemption up to 3NT. It's just so glaringly false. If I'm wrong then give us some good examples with opponent preemption.

 

Tysen

- There are probably around billions examples with preemptive openings or overcalls. Your opinion about ForcePoint will not change if I loose 1 hour to give to you personal 2-3 examples. Find the example I have already give to an Expert poster. What I remember, I made an example with opps 4♦ opening, even they bid again 5♣ in attempt to prevent a Slam. Read it , and think about the lower preemptive.

- You simply are suspisious, that ForcePoint will be weak on preemtive. Why? You didn't checked it. Obviously you do not like the fact, that somewhere around can persist a system that is better on preemptive than the systems you know. You do not need a system that will shake your basic bridge imagination. Let's decide what to do. Close your eyes and forget about it.

[hrothgar]

You simply are suspisious, that ForcePoint will be weak on preemtive. Why? You didn't checked it. Obviously you do not like the fact, that somewhere around can persist a system that is better on preemptive than the systems you know. You do not need a system that will shake your basic bridge imagination. Let's decide what to do. Close your eyes and forget about it.

I'll readily admit that I have some "issues" with ForcePoint:

 

Issue 1: ForcePoint's hand evaluatation system is complex. Coupled with this, the hand evaluation structure is not particularly accurate. The score generated by your hand evaluation system is worse than a number of less complex methods.

 

Issue 2: Rather than responding this critique you have essentially ignored it while making grandious if not impossible claims about the accuracy of your system. A claim that you will "never" miss a slam isn't an impressive one. Exagerations like this one suggest snake oil.

 

Issue 3: Your postings about ForcePoint are [essentially] a commercial for a series of products that you are selling. I very much enjoy debating bidding theory. However, I dislike commercial advertizement on education forums.

 

Before I invest the time and money required to learn your system, you really need to demonstrate that its worthwhile for me to do so.

 

The single most "impressive" thing that you could do would be demonstrate that you have a sound "foundation". Demonstrate that your hand evaluation methods are worth their complexity...

[Pavell]

Obviously you didn't read a row of the system, and I do not know why you ask ?!

I'll tell you why, its because your system is not the only one in the world, there are lots of them, infact nothing in your system is new, most of the systems face te same problems, and one of those problem, is how much you can load on the 1c bid to take off from the other bids, some things it should be 17+ some 16+ and moscito is trying 15+ but the players of it "complained" more then once that its very vulnarable to interference, and now you come out of now were with 1c=B2 and claim you can handle it without a problem, we dont have to know this specific system, to know that its not true.

- I still can not understand you. ForcePoint uses 1♣ opening (B2+, any shape), only when it can not use any of the other strategically posted openings, which narrow enough the possibilietis of the declared "any shape". It is not the bid of 1♣ which can handle a system. ForcePoint has a mechanism for discovering the EXACT partner's shape below 4♣. And because it is dynamic, the opps bids can not do much harm. By other hand, the sum of both partner's B# shows the game's Play Level (PL). With this information, and some elementary adjustments, even a Beginer will be cappable to make the same fine contracts, which you do, using your 15 years Conventions knowleges. If that is the problem, I'm pass.

- And for your surprise, I will tell you that ForcePoint doesn't have most of the other system problems, because its bids are strictly synonimous and cristal clear for your partner. You do not have even a range of HCP to handle, if you have a FIT and the sum of your B# is 5, you can play 5 in the fit's suit or 3NT, but if your PlayLevel (PL) = 4, you can NOT play 5, because you NEVER will make it. That's a big difference with the other systems. With them you do not know what is your exact PL, with Fp it is enough to exchange with your partner the fit(s) and the B# information to find the best contract.

- On the hand below, South opened 1♣ with B2+, any shape. The opps are pass. But that is not interesting for you. So try to reach 5 with your system:

 

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

AK98

AKT84

[Free]

- On the hand below, South opened 1♣ with B2+, any shape. The opps are pass. But that is not interesting for you. So try to reach 5 with your system:

 

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

AK98

AKT84

1♣ - 1NT

2♣ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♦

3♥ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♥

4♠ - 5♣

6♣

 

1♣ = 15+ any

1NT = semipositive, unbalanced with 5+♥

2NT = 5+♥, 4♣, short ♠

3♦ = 1-5-3-4

3♠ = 3 SlamPoints

4♥ = 1/2 tophonours ♥, 0 tophonours ♣

5♣ = 1/2 tophonours ♦, exactly 1 tophonour ♥

South only relays

 

It depends on the mood if we bid slam or not, you need 2-2 ♣ split... We know partner holds the following:

x

Kxxxx

Qxx

xxxx

[tysen2k]

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

AK98

AKT84

 

Pavell, please indulge us with two examples. Please show us how these 2 hands bid when South opens 1♣ and West overcalls 3♠.

 

Now do the same for these 2 hands (which I assume is still a 1♣ opening):

 

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

K842

AT852

[MarceldB]

Thank you very much for your extended reply.

 

I have some questions left:

I have altered Q♣ in Q♥

 

AKxx-------- xx

AJxx--------- Qx

KQ----------- Jxxxxxx

AKx---------- xx

 

4NT and an answer: 5♥ = J in the longest suit + Q♥

I suppose you meant this sequence in the framework of your quote

>This one can freeze the blood of any Bidding Developer, ?

 

---------------

 

Axx--------- xx

Axx--------- xxx

AKQx------- Jx

xxx--------- AKQxxx

J♦ investigated?

Sorry, I did not realize that East would be the relayer.

So same question and J♦ placed now in East.

West has the same bid of 3♦, East now 3♥ and finally 6NT as contract ?

 

-----------------

West's hand slightly altered:

Axx--------- xxx

Axxx-------- xx

AKJ--------- Qxxxxx

Axx---------- xxx

 

PL maintains 3

But Q♦ is now an important issue.

 

----------------

Regarding stopper(s) asking/showing matter & control asking/showing matter:

included in your system too?

There are enough circumstances to have stopper info in case an exact distribution is not (so) important. Or even in a slam region to know on forehand on a low(er) level where the points are located and if they will work.

 

Or a control asking/showing and the possibility if that control is the right one to continue the distribution sequence. Instead of hearing after the distribution relay and the (expected) CPA that the control is in the wrong suit and the contract could be to high already. (xxx opposite xxx whilst f.e. 4S must be the contract although you have all the honours/tricks in the other 3 suits)

 

-12-02-04 added:

example:

 

West or East dealer

xxx-----------Qxx

AQxxx--------KJxxx

KQJx----------Ax

A--------------KQJ

4♥ is the limit

I can imagine that the stiff Ace♣ -seeing what that's worth in your pointcount system- could influence badly the final contract in case you don't know on forehand the lack of an important control.

 

whilst with a Queen less in East:

(west or east dealer: purpose is that west=relayer

xxx-----------Axx

AQxxx--------KJxxx

KQJx----------xx

A--------------KQJ

 

you will feel comfortable to do a slam investigation

 

----------------------

and finally in the framework of bidding the correct slam ànd in the correct hand:

 

W/non or East : purpose is that East will be the relayer

KJxx---------98xx

AJxxx------- KQ

x-------------AKQ

AJx-----------KQxx

 

W/non or East : purpose is now that West will be the relayer

KJxx---------98xx

AQxxx------- KJ

x--------------AKQ

AQx-----------KJxx

 

as you will understand a matter of "Jack juggle".

West or East relayer apart of the fact that in my opinion the balanced hand should be normally the relayer.

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

regards,

Marcel

Edited December 2, 2004 by MarceldB

[inquiry]

Hi Pavell,

 

I applaud your attempt to bring order to disorder (bidding). If you read these forums, you will see that I have a very experimental nature. I have tried a lot of systems, and about every convention around (nothing really helps me of course, as judgement is what is important)... Having applaud you and having said i like new things, I still have to agree with many of the posters here. The Forcepoint system claims sound too much like claims made by a snake oil salesman.

 

I think you need to tone down your rheteric and spend more time explaining (if you want to charge for all the detalis, fine, then add some national championships or regional championships) to support your claims.

 

I did notice a first place on ACBL event you had. To be honest with you, no one puts much weight beind big on line scores.... it is too easy to, (ahem) get good results by less than legal means (I do not mean to imply anything by this statement.) However, I don't imply you got these results by any ohter than fully honest results. However, the implication from your webpage http://bullbridge.com/generic44.html from this sunday, august 22nd 2004 ACBL tournment is that Forcepoint accounted for your huge win. But most of us here on the Bridge Base Forum (as you have found out) are skeptics.. .we are like 100 people all from the show me state, Missouri. The ACBL tourment was only 12 boards long. Why not post all the hands and show us how Forcepoint lead the wonderful contracts and how you used it to lord over the opponents. For instance, if your system landed you in 8 wonderful contracts, that would be very convincing. On the other hand, what would it mean if you got to five horrible contracts on which the defense was worse than your bidding? What would it mean if your opponents got to three horrible spots all by themselves, and you got very good results by that mean? What would it mean if out of 12 hands, you had only one great contract, and even that auction seems not consitent with your own forcepoint notes?

 

I am not saying any of these are true. But since you hold up the ACBL result as an example of the bidding power of the forcepoint method, are you willing to post the very hands (only 12 hands in ACBL events) to show us the effectiveness of your system in the wild. Sort of a real world test?

 

Ben

[Pavell]

Hi Pavell,

 

I applaud your attempt to bring order to disorder (bidding). If you read these forums, you will see that I have a very experimental nature. I have tried a lot of systems, and about every convention around (nothing really helps me of course, as judgement is what is important)... Having applaud you and having said i like new things, I still have to agree with many of the posters here. The Forcepoint system claims sound too much like claims made by a snake oil salesman.

 

I think you need to tone down your rheteric and spend more time explaining (if you want to charge for all the detalis, fine, then add some national championships or regional championships) to support your claims.

 

I did notice a first place on ACBL event you had. To be honest with you, no one puts much weight beind big on line scores.... it is too easy to, (ahem) get good results by less than legal means (I do not mean to imply anything by this statement.) However, I don't imply you got these results by any ohter than fully honest results. However, the implication from your webpage http://bullbridge.com/generic44.html from this sunday, august 22nd 2004 ACBL tournment is that Forcepoint accounted for your huge win. But most of us here on the Bridge Base Forum (as you have found out) are skeptics.. .we are like 100 people all from the show me state, Missouri. The ACBL tourment was only 12 boards long. Why not post all the hands and show us how Forcepoint lead the wonderful contracts and how you used it to lord over the opponents.  For instance, if your system landed you in 8 wonderful contracts, that would be very convincing. On the other hand, what would it mean if you got to five horrible contracts on which the defense was worse than your bidding? What would it mean if your opponents got to three horrible spots all by themselves, and you got very good results by that mean? What would it mean if out of 12 hands, you had only one great contract, and even that auction seems not consitent with your own forcepoint notes?

 

I am not saying any of these are true. But since you hold up the ACBL result as an example of the bidding power of the forcepoint method, are you willing to post the very hands (only 12 hands in ACBL events) to show us the effectiveness of your system in the wild. Sort of a real world test?

 

Ben

- The pairs #63 ACBL Tournament was won using the light version of ForcePoint, Nell's ForcePoint before BBO to forbid using it, because of the opening bids of 1NT and 2♦, which although alerted properly, and not multi, distracted the casual players, by TD's opinion

1NT = 10+, any bi-color

2♦ = 10+, unbalanced with Void

- I do not have the time to put the actual games here, I know very well you can find them on http://bridgebase.com/myhands

- Pay attention that I do not care at all if somebody like or dislike ForcePoint. I have published it, if somebody look for a strong accurate Bidding. Do not expect from me to go even to regional championship. I do not have time for that.

- The only thing I would want to do is to find a programmer to finish the ForcePoint's source code, and go to Canada against GIB and JACK. But I may assure you that this also won't probably happen, because it requires a lot of money and time. I have lost already 12 years to create it, and I think it is more than enough, so if you want to use some of it, find it alone, if not, my advice is to forget about Fp, no big deal.

[Pavell]

Thank you very much for your extended reply.

 

I have some questions left:

I have altered Q♣ in Q♥

 

AKxx-------- xx

AJxx--------- Qx

KQ----------- Jxxxxxx

AKx---------- xx

 

4NT  and an answer: 5♥ = J in the longest suit + Q♥

I suppose you meant this sequence in the framework of your quote

>This one can freeze the blood of any Bidding Developer, ?

 

---------------

 

Axx--------- xx

Axx--------- xxx

AKQx------- Jx

xxx--------- AKQxxx

J♦ investigated?

Sorry, I did not realize that East would be the relayer.

So same question and J♦ placed now in East.

West has the same bid of 3♦, East now 3♥ and finally 6NT as contract ?

 

-----------------

West's hand slightly altered:

Axx--------- xxx

Axxx-------- xx

AKJ--------- Qxxxxx

Axx---------- xxx

 

PL maintains 3

But Q♦ is now an important issue.

 

----------------

Regarding stopper(s) asking/showing matter & control asking/showing matter:

included in your system too?

There are enough circumstances to have stopper info in case an exact distribution is not (so) important. Or even in a slam region to know on forehand on a low(er) level where the points are located and if they will work.

 

Or a control asking/showing and the possibility if that control is the right one to continue the distribution sequence. Instead of hearing after the distribution relay and the (expected) CPA that the control is in the wrong suit and the contract could be to high already. (xxx opposite xxx whilst f.e. 4S must be the contract although you have all the honours/tricks in the other 3 suits)

 

-12-02-04 added:

example:

 

West or East dealer

xxx-----------Qxx

AQxxx--------KJxxx

KQJx----------Ax

A--------------KQJ

4♥ is the limit

I can imagine that the stiff Ace♣ -seeing what that's worth in your pointcount system- could influence badly the final contract in case you don't know on forehand the lack of an important control.

 

whilst with a Queen less in East:

(west or east dealer: purpose is  that west=relayer

xxx-----------Axx

AQxxx--------KJxxx

KQJx----------xx

A--------------KQJ

 

you will feel comfortable to do a slam investigation

 

----------------------

and finally in the framework of bidding the correct slam ànd in the correct hand:

 

W/non  or East : purpose is that East will be the relayer

KJxx---------98xx

AJxxx------- KQ

x-------------AKQ

AJx-----------KQxx

 

W/non  or East : purpose is now that West will be the relayer

KJxx---------98xx

AQxxx------- KJ

x--------------AKQ

AQx-----------KJxx

 

as you will understand a matter of "Jack juggle"

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

regards,

Marcel

- Sorry Marcel, I do not have time to answer your 4 new questions about the Slam games. I already lost for you enough time. All system's principles are published. If you are interested, you have to be able to find out all answers. My further explanations won't help you, if you do not start to think alone. Pay attention only to one thing: if your PL < 6, you do not need to make any Honors investigations, the Counting is enough accuracy to provide to you the right contract based only on your Play Level (PL). Success.

[inquiry]

- I do not have the time to put the actual games here, I know very well you can find them on http://bridgebase.com/myhands

Ok.. I didn't realize you were so short of time that you could not open your log files, use linconverter and then paste the hands here on BBO. As far as "anyone" going to myhands and seeing your results, you may not know this, but myhands only goes back two or three weeks. So hands from August (and September, and october, and some of November for that matter) are no longer posted there. So, no, people can not go back that far to find your hands or their own hands.

 

Of course, people could, if they ware interested look at any hands you (or I or anyone else) play in the last couple weeks on BBO at the myhand site. However, it is possible for me to dredge up the hands from August 22 and post them here with a some effort on my part. Of couse I will not understand the Fp auctions so I haven't bothered (if I studied Fp, I would want to look at how you use it by looking at old hands you play). But since your win in this event is the example of of how your system performs in action ("The above snapshoot of NFP's achivement on one ACBL Tournament" referring to the August 22 game), I am willing to do this work to post the 12 hands here to bolster your arguements. I just don't want to go the effort to post the hands if they will just sit here without explaination or if you would object for some reason for your hands to be published in this public forum (maybe they are part of the material you are selling, for instance).

 

Good luck with your system.

 

Ben

[Pavell]

- I do not have the time to put the actual games here, I know very well you can find them on http://bridgebase.com/myhands

Ok.. I didn't realize you were so short of time that you could not open your log files, use linconverter and then paste the hands here on BBO. As far as "anyone" going to myhands and seeing your results, you may not know this, but myhands only goes back two or three weeks. So hands from August (and September, and october, and some of November for that matter) are no longer posted there. So, no, people can not go back that far to find your hands or their own hands.

 

Of course, people could, if they ware interested look at any hands you (or I or anyone else) play in the last couple weeks on BBO at the myhand site. However, it is possible for me to dredge up the hands from August 22 and post them here with a some effort on my part. Of couse I will not understand the Fp auctions so I haven't bothered (if I studied Fp, I would want to look at how you use it by looking at old hands you play). But since your win in this event is the example of of how your system performs in action ("The above snapshoot of NFP's achivement on one ACBL Tournament" referring to the August 22 game), I am willing to do this work to post the 12 hands here to bolster your arguements. I just don't want to go the effort to post the hands if they will just sit here without explaination or if you would object for some reason for your hands to be published in this public forum (maybe they are part of the material you are selling, for instance).

 

Good luck with your system.

 

Ben

- I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future. If you decide to put the hands here, I'll find time to explain the Bidding, but do not forget, it is the Bidding for the light version of Fp. Although the Counting is the same, the opening and responding bids are obsolutely different from the original ForcePoint's version for computers and Experts. It is simply very easy natural Bidding for everyone, but because the Counting is very accurate, the results are still very good. That way I have told to anyone to implement the ForcePoint's Counting to the system s/he playing, without changing the opening and the responding bids. An example for SAYC using Fp's Counting may be found on http://bullbridge.com/generic46.html

[Pavell]

- On the hand below, South opened 1♣ with B2+, any shape. The opps are pass. But that is not interesting for you. So try to reach 5 with your system:

 

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

AK98

AKT84

1♣ - 1NT

2♣ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♦

3♥ - 3♠

4♣ - 4♥

4♠ - 5♣

6♣

 

1♣ = 15+ any

1NT = semipositive, unbalanced with 5+♥

2NT = 5+♥, 4♣, short ♠

3♦ = 1-5-3-4

3♠ = 3 SlamPoints

4♥ = 1/2 tophonours ♥, 0 tophonours ♣

5♣ = 1/2 tophonours ♦, exactly 1 tophonour ♥

South only relays

 

It depends on the mood if we bid slam or not, you need 2-2 ♣ split... We know partner holds the following:

x

Kxxxx

Qxx

xxxx

- The game is published by ACBL last December Bulletin, "Partnership Bridge" section. The original contract is 4♣ ?! For Fp it is simple Slam, which must be played, because the PL = 6 (North's B# = 0, South's B# = B5, with ♣ Super Fit), ad the Control Points (CP) = 33 (30 to 35 are for small Slam with PL >= 6, 36+ CP are for Grand, but with PL >= 7). That's the Counting. Everything else is the Bidding mechanism for exchanging the information.

[inquiry]

- I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future.

I apologize for characterizing that you were selling something. I got this impression from a post by hrothgar above where he suggested you had a series of products based on this system. My bad.

 

If you decide to put the hands here, I'll find time to explain the Bidding, but do not forget, it is the Bidding for the light version of Fp.

 

Ok.. .especially now that it is clear you are not selling anything, and you have no objections, and you are willing to explain you bidding, I will go to the trouble of drudging up the hands and posting them so we can see (light version) of Fp in action.

 

Ben

[Pavell]

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

AK98

AKT84

 

Pavell, please indulge us with two examples.  Please show us how these 2 hands bid when South opens 1♣ and West overcalls 3♠.

 

Now do the same for these 2 hands (which I assume is still a 1♣ opening):

 

6

KT976

QJT

6543

 

T94

A

K842

AT852

- In both cases South will open 1♣ (B2+, any shape). North's B# = 0 (3+4+2-2=7 pts. B#=7/4-2=0) and the after 3♠ from West, North will bid Pass, which will show B(0) or less, any shape (if the opps bid is weak, with B1, North will bid X, with B2+, s/he will show the Basic suit).

- With South's B# = 5 (-2+9+10+10 = 27 pts. B#=27/4-2 =5) the bid of X will follow, which will ask for CP by the asking which the light Fp version uses (A=6 CP, K= 4 CP, but Singletons = Voids = 2 CP). It is useful when you do not have enough Bidding space or you do not need to discover the exact partner's shape):

- 1st step answer = 4 CP or less (the assumption is with B(-1)

- 2nd step = 6 CP (the assumption is with B(0)

- 3rd step = 8 CP (the assumption is with B1) and so on...

With a King and a Singleton = 6 CP, the response will be 4♣

- What South knows now: the PL = 5 and CP 32, so s/he will continue with the Relay of 4♦ for the 5 card suit, then for the 4 card suit, all natural.

 

South - West - North - East

1♣ (B2+, any shape)- 3♠ - Pass (B(0) or less) - Pass

X (Relay for CP) - Pass - 4♣ (6 CP) - Pass

4♦ - Pass - 4♥ (2 or 5 card Basic suit, length preference) - Pass

4♠ - Pass - 5♣ (4 card suit) - Pass

6♣ (if partner's 4 card suit was ♦, we would play 5♦, but now with 32 CP and PL = 6, because of the SuperFit, I must go to 6)

 

- The 2nd game with South's B# = 2 (-2+9+4+6 = 17 pts. B#=17/4-2 = 2) South will bid Pass, because the PL =< 2, and even with a Super Fit , it can not go over 3.

[hrothgar]

I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future.

I APOLOGIZE

 

Somehow the following website lead me to beleive that you had a commercial product available

 

http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsel...040&item=8790-3

 

Or, maybe it was

 

http://www.bullbridge.com/generic28.html

 

or maybe it was you "Money for Bidding" scheme

 

I don't know HOW I could have ever made such a mistake...

[Pavell]

I'm seling nothing, nor will sell in the future.

I APOLOGIZE

 

Somehow the following website lead me to beleive that you had a commercial product available

 

http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsel...040&item=8790-3

 

Or, maybe it was

 

http://www.bullbridge.com/generic28.html

 

or maybe it was you "Money for Bidding" scheme

 

I don't know HOW I could have ever made such a mistake...

- You didn't made a mistake. The options are still available by the time I thought I'll be able to finish ForcePoint's source code complitely. Now I think, that this maybe never will happen (the program offer only the Counting and manual playing and anyone can download its free Demo), but I still can not find time to correct the site. But who knows, maybe Zar will find time and start the corrections. Or maybe GIB some day will decide to use my Counting/Bidding and with ots exellent playing module to go against JACK (for the last 3 years GIB even didn't appear on World Computer Championship in Canada, because JACK easy overpower their Bidding). Because of the unique Counting/Bidding, by my opinion, ForcePoint maybe will be able to overpower some of the participants even with the old free playing file gib.exe, but I do not have the resources to finish the job.

[tysen2k]

With a King and a Singleton = 6 CP, the response will be 4♣

- What South knows now: the PL = 5 and CP 32, so s/he will continue with the  Relay of 4♦ for the 5 card suit, then for the 4 card suit, all natural.

 

South - West - North - East

1♣ (B2+, any shape)- 3♠ - Pass (B(0) or less) - Pass

X (Relay for CP) - Pass - 4♣ (6 CP) - Pass

4♦ - Pass - 4♥ (2 or 5 card Basic suit, length preference) - Pass

4♠ - Pass - 5♣ (4 card suit) - Pass

6♣ (if partner's 4 card suit was ♦, we would play 5♦, but now with 32 CP and PL = 6, because of the SuperFit, I must go to 6)

Okay, so you're at 4♣ with neither partner having shown shape information. Good thing you were able to stumble into a club fit.

 

So if responder had 6 hearts and no other 4-card suit I assume he would bid 5♥ over the 4♠ relay?