Pavell Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 ForcePoint for computers and Experts (Fp original) http://bullbridge.com/generic44.htmlhttp://bullbridge.com/generic45.htmlhttp://bullbridge.com/generic46.htmlhttp://bullbridge.com NOTE: # 44 will send you to the light version of ForcePoint: Nell's ForcePoint for anyone. It is a new system cappable immediately to elevate your Bidding qualification to the Advanced level. You will be surprised to find that you won't need any additional Conventions to reach this Level. The modified Control Point's Asking is all you will need# 45 will send you to ForcePoint original for computers and Experts. One Only Convention for all your distributional and Control needs# 46 will send you to C-SAYC with ForcePoint's Counting for anyone. You still will use the old SAYC bids, but better use the modified Control Points Asking instead of 4NT Chapter 1: The Counting - The main principle is to transfer your HCP to a Base number (B#) and forget about them or any other distributional evaluations/devaluation of the hand. The next thing is to exchange with/supply to your partner your B#. The sum of both partners B#s will give to you the contract's Play Level (PL) with over 85% warranty. With heavy distributional hands you will need to make some elementary additional PL's corrections, for instance for any 6 or 7 card suit opposite a Void or a Singleton in the same suit your PL will go 1 Down. Also if you decide to play NT, your PL goes 1 Down by principle. The opening bids are crusial, and even a preemptive overcal will be difficult to stop you from reaching the right contract, including the penalty double. Enough with the overall talking. Let's do it on practice: How to transfer your HCP to B# : - It is simple. Add to your distributional or HCP their Control's value , and you will find your Total (T) pts. Divide them by 4, approximating the result, then subtract 2. That's all. Is it ? What will happen if the division's reminder is 2 ? In which dirrection to approximate the division result ? OK, I'll tell you: If you have Void(s) or Singleton(s) or you are an Expert, go up, other way stay low, or you will be burned ! It will be unfair to you not to tell you, that in such situation, there is a Rule in conjunction with your Control Points, named Control Point's Correction (CPC), but that may be discussed privately if you are interesting at all. - So, count your pts by the Rule of : 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 A = 6 pts (4 HCP + 2 Controls)Void = 5 pts (3 distributional pts + 2 Controls, or if you insist: 2 distributional pts + 3 Controls)K = 4 pts (3 HCP + 1 Control)Singleton = 3 (2 distributional pts + 1 Control)Q = 2 ptsJ = 1 pt - In addition: Singleton Ace = 9 pts (do not duplicate the Singleton's counting), but any other Singleton = 3 pts, despite of their Honor's value (if any). ************************ START of later added additional information :blink: :o PLEASE take my excuses for this late added ADDITIONAL information. I forgot to mention to you for the Negative (N) pts, although when I'm playing, I count them mechanically. Probably I was sleeping (that's right, I remember it was 2 am on the morning), when I have started the post, mamma mia, sorry B). Any way I'll use this space in the future to add some additional information, which I have missed on the 1st time publication ! The Negative (N) Points - For every 3, 4 and 5 card suit without Control (Ace or King) subtract 1 pt, but if you do not have any Honor(s) in such suits, subtract a total of 2 pts (presumed that the TEN is not a Honor). Remember, do it ONLY for any 3, 4 or 5 card suits ! - So, your Total (T) pts = HCP - Negative (N) pts + Controls (A=2, K=1, by the way ZAR took this from me, we are friends and maybe some day will write the ForcePoint's source code and will go to the Bridge World Computer Championship in Canada against JACK and GIB) - OK, I'l tell you something more: 1. One Singleton = 3 pts, but 2 Singletons worth 4 pts each, and 3 Singletons worth 5 pts each !2. 1. One Void = 5 pts, but 2 Voids worth 6 pts each, and 3 Voids worth 7 pts each !2. Add 2 more pts for any sequense of AKQJ+ NOTE: How you may see, ForcePoint uses the presence of the pseudo suits to indirectly evaluate the suits lengths. I simply think, it will be easier method to do the suits length evaluation for the most players, because the main goal of ForcePoint was to use whole numbers. Can you tell me, how much you will evaluate your hand for the 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 card suit separate. 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25 and so on...? That make me crazy! - One more thing: you can evaluate your Play Level (PL) 1 UP if you find a "good" Singleton or Void (pseudo suit opposite 3 or 4 card suit without Top Honors). Of course, your system has to be cappable of discoveting, not only the Controls, but the Queens, too. - Let's use the Fp Counting for the 13 card suit for example: - AKQJxxxxxxxxx worth 6 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 2 (for the general sequence) = 15 pts - 3 Voids = 21 pts (7 pts each), so your Total(T) pts = 36 - Your B# = T/4 - 2 = 36/4 - 2 = 7. Suppose your partner has nothing, but s/he still has a Void = 5 pts (if your partner have more, it doesn't matter, because the Play Level (PL) is the sum of both partner's B#s, and even if you receive PL = 10, you can not play more than 7 on practice). So, let's your partner has 5440 shape and not a Honors at all. - Your partner's Total pts = 5 (for the Void) - 6 Negative pts for the rest of suits = -1 pt. - Your partner's B# = T/4 - 2 = -1/4 - 2 = -2, but you will be aware by the ForcePoint (Fp) Bidding (if you perform any, exept to bid 7 in the suit you hold), only for a Negative Base of minimum of B(-1). - So, if you theoritically want to count your Play Level, it will be: PL = 7 (your B#) - 1 (your partner's B#) + 1 (for the Trump Super Fit) = 7 Any questions about the linear Fp Counting? A GENERAL NOTE: If you are not an Expert Player, do not approximate the division result, and you will have a Super Safety Counting/Bidding: - DO NOT approximate the division result at all ! That means you must discard ANY division's reminder, despite that it can be even 3/4. The Counting still will show to you the true Play Level (PL), but that will be your game's Double Dummy PL. How you may know, it is usually 1 level down, than you probably can reach on practice, because of the finesses posibilities, the attack or opps mistakes, etc. if any. To correct it , but still use the easier safety Counting, you may implement slight changes to your Pseudo suits values. Simply count them: - Void = 6 pts (instead of 5) - Singleton = 3 pts (was the same) - Doubleton = 1 pt (instead of Zero), and follow the main Rule: WHEN CALCULATE YOUR B#, DO NOT APPROXIMATE THE DIVISION RESULT AT ALL, i.e. DISCARD ANY REMINDER EVEN IT IS 3/4 ! END of later added additional information :blink: ************************ - Suppose you have 15 Total (T) pts. Your Base number will be: B# = T/4 - 2 = 15/4 - 2 = 2. Let's your partner's B# = 2, too. Your suit PL = 2 + 2 = 4, but if you decide to play NT, the NT PL = 3. In any case, do not try 5, or you will be burned ! NOTE: Because in the Midrange Contracts around 3rd Level the possibilities for a finesses are bigger, you may try 4 in Majors with Play Level (PL) = 3, but do NOT do that with 2 Mirror 3 card suits or a full Mirror suits hand, if your system is cappable to discover them, how ForcePoint does. - What you have to do in the cases when the reminder of the division = 2 ? You have to choose the right approximation's direction! If you have Void(s), Singleton(s) or Doubleton(s) simply go up. If you do not have such pseudo suits, you can go up only in case if you have "enough" Control Points (CP) in conjunction with your particular B# (what is "enough" is not published here, and can be discussed only privately). In all other cases go down to downgrade your B#, or you will be burned ! NOTE: Check for the Control Points Correction (CPC) in conjunction with your particular B# ONLY if you do not have any pseudo suit (Void, Singleton or Doubleton) and ONLY if the division reminder = 2 ! The CPC can be dissused only by request and privately, because it it not for players who do not intend to use the Counting. ALSO NOTE: The Counting doesn't work with 5 to 0 Trumps in either opps hand ! Play Level's (PL) corrections: - for a Trump Super Fit or a 2nd Fit (but not 4 by 4) your PL = PL + 1 - For a Trump Misfit your PL + PL - 1 NOTE: The are some more simple corrections you have to take care, which will be added soon, expecially the Corrections for transfering your suit PL to NT PL, which no one system has! - Why this system is so easy? When you finish the counting and find your and your partner's B#, all you will need to do is to add both B#s and apply the Corrections (if any), always in whole numbers. What you will do if you have 5.5 winners? You can not bid a contract of 5.5 ♥ ! Which direction you will choose to approximate them. Will you approve your partner's decision, when he decided the approximation was to be done in the opposite direction. There is no such problems with the strictly synonimous ForcePoint's bids. - With this system you will discover the exact partner's distribution mostly below 4♣, leaving to you enough bidding space to find the Controls and their exact suits along with the Queens, if you need that information. In the cases you do that over 3NT, you will not desire to play NT contract and your Play Level (PL) will be ALWAYS upper! So, you NEVER will be surprized by a King opposite a Void or a Singleton when you go for a Slam. The explicit warranty for your Counted PL and the full knowledge of your partner's EXACT shape and Controls will permit you to do the best possible contracts despite any "Goulash" distributions. If you read the next chapter for the unique ForcePoint's Control Points Asking (CPA), you will find out, why this system is interesting. Sometimes when your bidding space allow, you even can use RKC for Queens and the longer suit's Jack, so 7NT will not be a difficult decision. NOTE: There is one bad thing with this system: The playing is still your own responsibility! *****************Chapter 2: Control Points Asking (CPA) - Ace = 6 Control Points (CP) - King = 4 CP - Singleton Ace = 9 CP - Any other Singleton, despite their Honor's value (if any) = 3 CP - Void = 6 CP - Simply add your partner's CP to your CP and if the sum is 30 to 35 CP and the PL >= 6, go for the Small Slam. With 36+ CP and PL >= 7, go for Grand Slam. But if you insist, there is a very easy way to find your partner's exact Aces and Kings, if you divide the value by 6, but pay attention NOT to the division result, BUT to the division's reminder.- with a reminder of Zero, your partner has 0 or 3 Kings- with a reminder of 2, your partner has 2 Kings- with a reminder of 4, your partner has 1 or 4 Kings NOTE: This copyrighted invention is published on the forum of http://www.jbridge.net , too. - You can start CPA from anywhere. The light version of ForcePoint NFP starts the slightly modified CPA from 4♣ (when possible) or 4NT. C-SAYC do the same, sacrifising the bid of 4♣ even if partner suit is ♣. The Fp original starts it with the chippest bid immediately after the partner's exact shape is discovered. The answers are by steps (sorry if you have to use your fingers to do that :P ): - 1st step ALWAYS shows the King's value (K = 4) in conjunction with your B#. For example, if your B# = 3, the 1st step's answer after the CP's Relay will show to your partner the value of 3 Kings, or 12 CP. Of course, you can have only 2 Aces, and not a King at all, the CP value is the same. Do not worry about your partner's understanding, s/he will have some Controls, too, in case s/he decide to ask for Controls! - all of the next steps add 2 more CP each to your initial step's CP. For example, if your B# = 1 and you have 1 Ace and 1 King, i.e. 10 CP, and the CPA starts with the bid of 4♣: - The 1st step of 4♦ will show the value of 1 King (because your B# = 1) or 4 CP. If your B# was = 2, the 1st step will show the value of 2 Kings or 8 CP, if your B# was = 3, the 1st step will show the value of 3 Kings or 12 CP, and so on... Any of the next steps will simply add 2 CP - the 2nd step of 4♥ will show 6 CP or 1 Ace - the 3rd step of 4♠ will show 8 CP or 2 Kings - the 4th step of 4NT will show 10 CP or 1 Ace + 1 King and so on.... - So, with One Only Question you will be able to discover simultaneously not only the number of your Controls, but the number of your Aces and Kings separate ! NOTE: You even do not need to know the exact number of the saparate Aces + Kings ! Simply add your partner's CP to your CP and if the sum is 30 to 35 CP and the PL >= 6, go for the Small Slam. With 36+ CP and PL >= 7, go for Grand Slam. Be aware that you need both requirements, for the PL and the necessary CP, to be fulfiled on the same time. You can NOT go to Grand Slam with 40 CP and PL = 6, or you will be badly burned! NOTE: If you need more precise information, you can continue with the Relay for the Control's suits. You even can use the RKC to discover the Queens + (Jack in the partner's longest suit). I'll show how to do it in the Chapter 4. *****************Chapter 3: The opening bids: The Dynamic ForcePoint Structural Bidding Simplicity - If you can not use some of the higher Opening Bids, with B2+ pts, open 1CL. It's a Forcing and you become the Quest. If your partner does not bid 1DI (an waiting bid for more pts) after opponent's PASS, or s/he do not use a DOUBLE(x) after opponent's overcall, you may be the Quest to the END of any particular bidding, forcing your partner with "RF = round forcing" or "GF = game forcing". By using the upside down "waiting bid" after your 1CL opening, your partner will take from you the Quest's title and may force you. 1. ANSWERS AFTER 1CL - Pass:- 1CL is the forcing opening and you become The Quest.- 1CL - Pass - 1DI (or Double) is UPSIDE DOWN "waiting bid", i.e. your partner has took from you the leadership and become a temporally Quest of this particular Game. If your partner bid something different from 1DI (or DOUBLE), do not expect forcing bids from her/him. SO THAT: - 1CL - PASS - PASS is forbiden!- 1CL - PASS - 1DI is UPSIDE DOWN "waiting" bid- 1CL - PASS - 1HE offer B1 or B2 pts (after 1SP = RF, you have to bid 1NT to show B2 pts), any balance. There is not any connection with the Heart's suit, so alert the bid. The balance hand may include Singleton (only for any 4441 shapes), but never 5+ suit and you can bid 2NT later to show any 4441 distribution, or make a jump in 4 card suit bettween 3DI and 3NT to show any 4333 shape. In the case, you continue with 1SP = RF, and your partner respond with 1NT, instead directly to show to you his/her Basic suit, s/he has B2 pts, balance.- 1CL - PASS - 1SP offer B1 pts, any 5 card suit.(no connection with the Spade's suit, so alert it).- 1CL - PASS - 1NT offer a Negative hand with B(-2) or B(-1) pts, and is invitation for 1NT game.- 1CL - PASS - 2CL, 2DI, 2HE, 2SP are B2, 5 card suits. They are named Basic suits. - AFTER OVERCALL(S):- 1CL - any - PASS offer a Negative Base, B(-1) or less.- 1CL - any - DOUBLE(x) is UPSIDE DOWN "waiting" bid by the new Quest.- 1CL - any - 1HE (if it is possible) offer a balance hand with B(0) pts (now, after the overcall, the Base is one level below the usual 1st level answer).- 1CL - any - 1SP (if possible) offer any 5th Basic suit with B(0) pts (again the Base is one level below B1, which is used on 1st level).- 1CL - any - 1NT (if possible) offer B1, balance hand.- 1CL - any - 2CL, 2DI, 2HE, 2SP (if they are possible) are Basic suit bids with B1 (instead of usual B2, which is used on 2nd level without an overcall), 5 card Basic suit.- 1CL - any - 2NT, 3CL, 3DI are "S" or "CO" or "R" (from SCOR convention) bi-colors excluding the Overcall's suit and B2 pts. "S" stands for SHAPE / SURROUNDING the Basic suit suits (i.e. every other suits)"CO" stands for suits with equal Color (red or black)"R" stands for suits with equal RANK (Major or Minor suits), always excluding the Basic suit (or the overcalled suit). - How you can see, the answers are the same, only the necessary Base for positive bid goes one level DOWN after an overcall. This raise the opponents' pressure and make them uncertain for possible game, while you know your suits along with the Play Level and you hold full control of the game. 2. Opener's response after 1CL - PASS - 1DI - OVERCALL (over 1NT bid):- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - OVERCALL - Double or 2DI, 2HE, 2SP are now 5 or 2 card suits (2 card suit only if you do not have any 5 card suit(s), i.e. with a balance hand by ForcePoint deffinition), but now with B2+ pts (remember, you have opened with minimum B2 pts).- So, the Opener's second round bid of :1HE offer B2, balance or B5+, any shape1SP offer exactly B4 pts, any shape1NT is exactly B3 pts, any shape2CL, 2DI, 2HE, 2SP are 2 card or 5 card Basic suit (2 card suit with a balanced hand if you do not have any 5 card suit(s), with exactly B2 pts). 3. Natural bids after 1CL - PASS - 1DI if no overcalls persist:- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 1HE offer a balance hand with exactly B2 pts- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 1HE - Pass - 1SP (RF) - Pass - 1NT offers a balance hand with B5+ pts- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 1SP offer an unbalanced hand with any 5 card suit, and exactly B2 pts - 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 1NT offer exactly B3 pts, any shape- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 2 in suit offer 5 card suit, with exactly B2 pts - 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 2NT is a JUMP with B2+ pts and any 4441.- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 3CL, 3DI, 3HE, 3SP are for 8 card Basic suit with B4,B5 pts.- 1CL - PASS - 1DI - Pass - 1HE, 1SP, 1NT - Pass - 3DI, 3HE, 3SP, 3NT Jumps (in the longer suit, with 3NT for the CL suit) are for an absolute balance with 4 card Basic suit (3343, 3433, 4333, 3334) with B2,B6+ pts(with 1HE), B4,B5 pts(with 1SP) or exactly B3 pts(with 1NT) any distributions. - Responses after 1CL - high overcall:1CL - 1H/1S/1NT - 2C/2D/2H/2S offer exactly B1 with 2 or 5 card Basic suit, while the Double (X) is RF (1 round forcing) with B1+, any shape. - Responses after 1CL - higher overcall:1CL - 2C/2D/2H/2S - 2D/2H/2S/3C/3D/3H/3S (if some of them are possible), offer exactly B1 with 2 card or 5 card Basic suit with exactly B1 if the suit is 5 card suit, or exactly B2, if the suit is 2 card suit, while the Double (X) is RF (round forcing), B2+, any shape NOTE: If one of you has showed the Basic suit, the One Only Convention SCOR-SCOR may start. The Quest will use RF/GF/CPA (RF = round forcing, GF = game forcing, CPA = Control Points Asking) to discover your exact shape and Controls, if necessary. to be continued with the SCOR-SCOR, the One Only Convention for all you distribution and Controls needs ......... *****************Chapter 4: The One Only Convention SCoR-SCoR or RCM-RCM : SCOR-SCOR / RCM-RCM / CRASH-CRASH the One Only Convention. Use any one of them, if you know it better. It is not new, only the extended steps answers were added by ForcePoint - Your 2nd level bids usually show your Basic suit (and your B# if you already didn't show it). It can be exactly a 2 card suit (with a balanced hand, which means by Fp Rules: no 5 card suit) or a 5+ card suit (with an unbalanced hand). The RF/GF (round/game forcing) will engage the SCOR-SCOR Convention: SCOR-SCOR / RCM-RCM / CRASH-CRASH the One Only Convention in short: NOTE: SCoR-SCoR or RCM-RCM is the One Only Convention which ForcePoint use for all its Distributional and Control needs. There are 2 basic Relays if the Quest already knows your Basic suit. 1st Relay for the other 2 suits (always excluding a Singleton or a Void suit, if any), and the 2nd Relay for the longest suit between the rest of 3 suits, ALWAYS excluding the Basic suit. The next Relays would be for Control Points (CP) and the Controls suits, if necessary. That's why the Fp Bidding (FpB) is ALWAYS SYNONYMOUS (can be natural with low Bases). The answers are by steps. The 2nd part of scor-SCOR is used for showing even (if you start with odd Basic suit cards) or odd (if you start with even Basic suit cards) length of the suit: - 1st step: "S" stands for the 2 suits Surrounding the Basic suit (also known like SHAPE suits, or every other suits, or the Rounded suits. They are marked by "R"(Rounded suits, around the Basic suit), if you apply RCM instead of SCoR abbriviation). - 2nd step: "Co" stands for the 2 suits with equal Color, red or black (they are marked by "C" if you decide to use RCM instead of SCoR abbriviation). - 3rd step: "R" stands for the 2 suits with equal Rank, also known like Majors or Minors (they are marked by "M" if you decide to use RCM instead of SCoR abbriviation). - 4th, 5th and 6th+ steps are the same, but they show, that your suit has 1 card's length more than you previously declared. The sign (+) after the 6th step means that you have to elevate your bid UP (still with the RANK meaning for the other 2 suits), untill you reach the longest suit between the all 3 suits, excluding the Basic. It's named Extended SCoR (or Extended RCM) and it is very useful, because it eliminate the need for the 3rd Relay for the longest suit between all of the 3 suits (excluding the Basic suit). Sometimes it can save much of the bidding space, and you would use it to find the places of the partner's Control(s), even the Queen(s) suits. ______________________ SCOR-SCOR / RCM-RCM / CRASH-CRASH the One Only Convention in details: 1. SCOR Convention for Balanced Hands - The answers are by steps:After finding the Basic 2 cards suit, the Quest continue with Relay and the Answerer use only the 1st part of SCOR-scor Convention to show by steps his two equal 4 card suits, excluding the Basic suit, e.g. if the 2 card suit is showing naturally with the bid 2DI - 2HE (Relay) - - 2SP (1st step) will be for "S", i.e. for SURROUNDING the Basic suit suits. The shape will be 3-4-2-4, i.e. 4 card suits are "SHAPE suits" or "every other suits" - 2NT (2nd step) will be for "Co", i.e. the shape will be 4-3-2-4. i.e. 4 card suits are with "equal Color", in this case black, because the Basic 2 cards DI suit is red. - 3CL (3rd step) will be for "R", i.e. the shape will be 4-4-2-3. i.e. 4 card suits are with "equal Rank" or "Majors or Minors", in this case Majors, because the Basic 2 cards DI suit is Minor. NOTE: If the opponents make an Overcall and the Answerer can not use the bid of 1HE to show its balanced hand, s/he will bid directly on 2nd level to show its 2 card suit. For now the Quest won't know if it is exsactly 2 card or 5 card suit, but after the next Relay, when the Answerer had shown its two other side suits, the Quest will ask for the longest suit between the rest of three suits (excluding the Basic suit), and if the Answerer didn't show it, but bid 3NT, s/he has a balanced hand. That's all. The next Relay will be for Control Points(CON). _______________ 2. SCOR-SCOR Convention for Balanced (if a disturbing overcall persisted) or Unbalanced Hands After finding the Basic 2 card or 5+ card suit, the Quest will continue with Relay and the Answerer have to use SCOR-RCOR Convention by steps to show his/her equal or the closest suits lengths, excluding the Basic suit, e.g. if the 2 card suit or 5+ card suit is showing naturally with the bid 2DI - 2HE(Relay) - -- 2SP (1st step) will be for "S", i.e. the SHAPE (S) will be: ?-S-(2 or 5+ card suits)-S, i.e. the equal or the closest length side suits are the SHAPE suits, SURROUNDING the Basic suit, i.e. are always "every other suits". The next Relay 2NT will be for the longest suit between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, and the answers will be: - 3CL for 1-3-5-4 shape (when the longest suit is between the S suits, the two other suits are ALWAYS 4 by 3 (with 5 card Basic suit), 4 by 2 (with 6 card Basic suit), 3 by 2 (with 7 card Basic suit), but THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE 3rd SUIT OUTSIDE "S" SUITS IS ALWAYS SINGLETON. - 3DI for 2-3-5-3 shape(the answer repeats the Basic suit. That mean, the "S" side suits are ALWAYS EQUAL, i.e. 1=1 (with 7 or 9 card suits), 2=2 (with 8 card suit), 3=3 (with 5 or 6 card suits) and 4=4 with 5 card suit and a Void. - 3HE for 1-4-5-3 shape(when the longest suit is between the "S" suits, the two other suits are ALWAYS 4 by 3 (with 5 card Basic suit), 4 by 2 (with 6 card Basic suit), 3 by 2 (with 7 card Basic suit), but THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE 3rd SUIT OUTSIDE "S" IS ALWAYS SINGLETON. - 3SP for 4-2-5-2 shape(when the longest suit, between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, is outside the "S" suits, the two side suits are ALWAYS EQUAL, i.e. 1=1 (with 7 card suit), 2=2 (with 5 card suit), 3=3 (with 6 card suit) and 4=4 with 5 card suit and Void. - 3NT for 3-4-2-4 -->S (with 2 cards Basic suit) or for 2-2-7-2, when you are sure, there is not 2 card Basic suit. _________________ -- 2NT (2nd step) will be for C, i.e. the shape will be C-?-(2 or 5+)-C. i.e. the side equal or closest suits are with "equal Color", in this case black, because the 2 or 5+ DI suit is red. ON a new Relay 3CL for the longest suit between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, the answers will be: - 3DI for 3-2-5-3 shape (the answer repeats the Basic suit). That means, the "C" side suits are ALWAYS EQUAL, i.e. 1=1 (with 7 or 9 card suits), 2=2 (with 8 card suit), 3=3 (with 5 or 6 card suits) and 4=4 with 5 card suit and a Void. - 3HE for 2-4-5-2 shape (when the longest suit, between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, is outside the "C" suits, the two side suit are ALWAYS EQUAL, i.e. 1=1 (with 7card suit suit), 2=2 (with 5 card suit), 3=3 (with 6 card suit) and 4=4 with 5 card suit and a Void. - 3SP for 4-1-5-3 shape (when the longest suits is between the "C" suits, the two suits are ALWAYS 4 by 3(with 5 card Basic suit), 4 by 2 (with 6 card Basic suit), 3 by 2 (with 7 card Basic suit), but THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE 3rd SUIT OUTSIDE "C" IS ALWAYS A SINGLETON. - 3NT for 4-3-2-4 --> C (with 2nd Basic suit) or for 2-2-7-2, when you are sure, there are not 2 card Basic suit. - 4CL for 3-1-5-4 shape (when the longest suits is between the "C" suits, the two suits are ALWAYS 4 by 3 (with 5 card Basic suit), 4 by 2 (with 6 card Basic suit), 3 by 2 (with 7 card Basic suit), but THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT THE 3rd SUIT OUTSIDE "C" IS ALWAYS A SINGLETON. __________________ -- 3CL (3rd step) will be for RANK suits, i.e. the shape will be R-R-(2 or 5+ card suit)-?, i.e. the side suits are "Major or Minor", in this case Majors, because the 2 card or 5+ card DI Basic suit is Minor. The next Relay 3DI will be for the longest suit between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, and the answers will be: - 3HE for 3-4-5-1 --> Rank suits, for 4 cards in HE and 5 cards in DI - 3SP for 4-3-5-1 --> Rank suits, for 4 cards in SP and 5 cards in DI - 3NT for 4-4-2-3 --> R (with 2 card Basic suit) or for 2-2-7-2, when you are sure, there are not 2 card Basic suit. - 4CL for 2-2-5-4 --> Rank suits, for 4 cards in CL and 5 cards in DI - 4DI for 3-3-5-2 --> Rank 3 by 3 card suits are ALWAYS shown by bid in the Basic suit __________________ -- 3DI (4th step) will be for SHAPE suits, but now with 6+ card Basic suit, i.e. the shape will be ?-S-(6 or 8 card suit)-S or 0-S-5-S, i.e. the equal or the closest length side suits are always "every other". The next Relay 3HE will be for the longest suit between all of the three suits, excluding the Basic suit, and the answers will be: - 3SP for 3-2-6-2 --> Shape suits, for 3 cards in SP and 6 cards in DI - 3NT for 8 cards in DI or 0-4-5-4 --> S - 4CL for 1-2-6-4 --> Shape suits, for 4 cards in CL and 6 cards in DI - 4DI for 1-3-6-3 --> Shape suits, return to the Basic suit with 3 by 3 - 4HE for 1-4-6-2 --> Shape suits, for 4 cards in HE and 6 cards in DI__________________ -- 3HE (5th step) will be for the suits with equal COLOR, i.e. the shape will be C-?-(6 or 8 card suit)-C or C-0-5-C, i.e. the side equal or closest length suits are with "equal Color", in this case black, because the 2 card or 5+ card DI Basic suit is red. The next Relay 3SP will be for the longest suit between all of the three suits, always excluding the Basic suit, and the answers will be: - 3NT for 8 cards in DI or 4-0-5-4 --> C - 4CL for 2-1-6-4 --> Color suits, for 4 cards in CL and 6 cards in DI - 4DI for 3-1-6-3 --> C - 4HE for 2-3-6-2 --> C - 4SP for 4-1-6-2 --> C ___________________ -- 3SP (6th step) will be for Rank suits, i.e. the shape will be R-R-(6 or 8 card suit)-? or M-M-5-0, i.e. the side suits are "Major or Minor", in this case Major, because the 2 card or 5+ card DI Basic suit is Minor. For the last step's answer by the Convention (scor-scoR) is not necessary a new Relay, because the answers will immediately point to the longest suit, excluding the Basic suit, i.e. - 3SP for 4-2-6-1 --> Rank suits, for 4 cards in SP and 6 cards in DI - 3NT for 8 cards in DI or 4-4-5-0 --> R - 4CL for 2-2-6-4 --> R - 4DI for 3-3-6-1 --> R, returnig to the Basic suit with 3 by 3 Rank card suits - 4HE for 2-4-6-1 --> R, pointing to the 4 card suit, and because you have used the 2nd part of the Convention, the Basic suit is a 6 card suit - BY this way, the Quest ALWAYS can stop by bidding Pass on the 4 by 4 Fit. That's all. The next Relay will be for Control Points (CP). The Overcall Rule: - On Overcalls without Jump, your B# have to match the Overcalls Level and on Overcalls with Jump, your Base can be only one down than the Overcalls Level. ***************** FOR HONOR PLACES by SLAM BIDDING: After showing your Controls, if the QUEST continue with Relays, s/he ask for: 1. The KING(s)' suits by SCOR: If you have 1 King, bid naturally the King's suit. If you have 2 Kings, use the first 3 steps of SCoR-(scor) Convention to show their places. If you have 1 King + 1 Ace show them simultaneously using SCoR-S(cor). If they are in the same suit, use the 2nd "S" from scor-Scor (the 4th step). If a normal Relay follow, answer for the Queen(s) presence by RKC manner. Note: With 2 Kings with equal RANK only, if you wish, you can simultaneously show the presence of your Queen(s) by the following unusual manner, but do not do that if the answer will go over 6CL: Showing the "R" from scoR-scor (the 3rd step) means two equal Rank Kings without Queens: - Use the next 4th step (2nd "S" from scor_Scor) to show the same 2K + 2 SHAPE Queens or 1 Queen in the suit you have bid. - Use the next 5th step (2nd "CO" from scor-sCOr) to show the same 2K + 2 COLOR Queens or 1 Queen in the suit you have bid. - Use the next 6th step (2nd "R" from scor-scoR) to show the same 2K + 2 RANK Queens or 1 Queen in the suit you have bid. If you have odd number of Kings: - with one King simply show naturally the King's suit. - with 3 Kings bid into the suit, where you ***************** Signature: Paul, native Bulgarian with over 66% Greek's discent, 55 yars old, electronic engineer, but an Average Player with ambition some day to become an Advanced, the developer of ForcePoint Bidding system and the rules of Fp Counting, which can be implemented and used with any other bridge system. Happy ende, or ... NOTE: The ForcePoint is protected by Federal Copyright Protection for indisputable legal proof that the author own this work! And that proof is a Registration Certificate already issued by the U.S. Copyright Office. - You are FREE to use it, but it is not the same with the companies and offcial Team Tournaments. They need the author permition to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 I advice you to leave the details of your system and explain why you think its better then other systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? I think you are now ready to open a web site and flood some forums with it too. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? - Probably you are not. But I'm not working with 0.5 tricks, nor you can bid 3.5 ♥. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 I advice you to leave the details of your system and explain why you think its better then other systems. - Thank you. After your post I took care of that, but you can find it all on my front page http://bullbridge.com :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? I think you are now ready to open a web site and flood some forums with it too. :blink: - Thank you. I did it 3 years ago, immediately after the 12 years that I have spent to create this system. But I think that a Forum there won't be useful. You can not argue competently before you try it, and when you try it, you will not want to argue anymore. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? I think you are now ready to open a web site and flood some forums with it too. :P - Thank you. I did it 3 years ago, immediately after the 12 years that I have spent to create this system. But I think that a Forum there won't be useful. You can not argue competently before you try it, and when you try it, you will not want to argue anymore. :P Its just too hard for me to understand ppl like you who have this huge confident that they know the best, are you a world class player ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Lemme see if I can simplify it: Ace = 1.5 winners, K=1, Q= 1/2.Void = 1 winner, singleton 1/2.7 card trump fit= -1 winner, 9 card fit +1.Singleton honors (except aces) count for only the singleton.-1 for poor shape outside the trump suit (like 3 card minors). Positive adjustments: Voids, singletons, jacks.Negative adjustments: 3-5 card suits without honors, 3-5 card suits without controls (so suits headed by the ten are two negative adjustments). If you have 2 more positive adjustments than negative, add one. If you're at -2 or more adjustments, subtract one. Take the number of tricks you and your P have, and add 2. The result is the expected number of tricks. Or subtract 5, and you have the level of the bid. There's additional details, but that's the gist of it. Am I wrong? I think you are now ready to open a web site and flood some forums with it too. :P - Thank you. I did it 3 years ago, immediately after the 12 years that I have spent to create this system. But I think that a Forum there won't be useful. You can not argue competently before you try it, and when you try it, you will not want to argue anymore. :D Its just too hard for me to understand ppl like you who have this huge confident that they know the best, are you a world class player ? - I'm not a famous Player, I'm a theorist. Probably you know who was Goren and what he did for the bridge world ? But do you know his players qualification ? I'll leave you to discover it alone :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 I'm not a Player, I'm a theorist. Probably you know who was Goren and what he did for the bridge world ? But do you know his players qualification ? I'll leave you to discover it alone :P Dont leave pls :P You just have to understand that many can say thier system is the best, by saying that you dont add anything to how i see your system.You can be just a kid who think he invented the world and no one else know anything, i dont know you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GijsH Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 The principles presented here sound very similar to MIDMAC. It also seems that not a Bidding System is described but a Hand Evaluation System. Am I right Pavell? MIDMAC has the advantage that standard HCP count is used (ace=4 etc), see http://www.midmac.tk for more details. Maybe Pavell can explain where his system differs from other systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Here's how Pavell's hand evaluation system stacks up compared to some others: ERROR SCORE HCP 1.23 -0.49 HCP+321 1.07 0.00 HCP+531 1.05 0.07 Zar 1.05 0.08 Pavel 1.04 0.11 <-- BUMRAP+321 1.03 0.14 BUMRAP+531 1.02 0.21 TSP 1.02 0.21 Binky 0.99 0.32 My usual disclamers for those who know me... :P ERROR is the average # of tricks there is in difference between how many tricks we think we can take and how many we actually take. This is calculated using a double dummy evaluation of over a million random hands. SCORE is an estimation of the IMPs/board we expect to gain against a team that uses a simple HCP+321 evaluation method. It’s a measure of how much payoff there is for using a better evaluation system. HCP is A=4, K=3, Q=2, J=1 HCP+321 is HCP + 3 per void + 2 per singleton + 1 per doubleton HCP+531 is the same with more points assigned to shortness Zar is HCP + Controls + twice the length of longest suit + once the length of second-longest suit minus length of shortest suit.http://public.aci.on.ca/~zpetkov/ BUMRAP is a substitute for HCP: A=4.5, K=3, Q=1.5, J=0.75, T=0.25 TSP is the method described in this article. It’s an attempt to find the best evaluator using simple whole numbers. Binky is Thomas Andrew’s evaluator:http://thomaso.best.vwh.net/bridge/valuations/ Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Probably you are not. But I'm not working with 0.5 tricks, nor you can bid 3.5 ♥. :o Sure you are. You're taking a point total, and dividing by 4. You end up not only with half tricks, but with quarter tricks. You can arbitrarily declare that a 3/4 of a trick is a full trick, but that's still dealing with them. I didn't do anything fancy- you add up all your numbers and then divide by four, I just divided by four first. That made the numbers equal to tricks, and therefore (for me) easier to understand. Let me challenge you on two things, and have you refute them. That might get the ball rolling: You claim that a singleton ace is worth 9 points, or the full value of the ace plus the full value of the singleton. You claim that a singleton king is worth 3 points, or only the full value of the singleton. This is very different from most methods. Most consider A singleton to be worth 2 tricks- 1.5 for the A, only .5 for the singleton, because the ace isn't helping lower cards. The King is worth 1.5 tricks- the singleton king may help your partner take tricks, and may win a trick on defense. In contrast, in Midmac a singleton generally ends up worth 2 more than a doubleton (they count shortness and length, and it adds one to both sides). A singleton king subtracts one point. from a normal king. A singleton ace ends up being worth about 6, a singleton king about 4. So, in your system, a singleton A is worth three times as much as a singleton king. In MIDMAC and most other counting systems, the difference is half that: a singleton ace is worth 1 1/2 times as much as a singleton king. That's a heck of a big difference. Can you explain, mathematically or otherwise, the reason for this disparity? I'm trying to compare your system to Zars, which is tough because you use 4 points per trick, he uses 5. However, it appears the biggest difference is that you value HCP a great deal more than he does- he tends to evaluate distribution stronger. You're both using 6421, but you're dividing by 4, and he's dividing by 5. Have you read the math on Zar points? What do you think are its biggest flaws? http://www.bridgeguys.com/pdf/ZarPoints2003.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Here's how Pavell's hand evaluation system stacks up compared to some others: ERROR SCORE HCP 1.23 -0.49 HCP+321 1.07 0.00 HCP+531 1.05 0.07 Zar 1.05 0.08 Pavel 1.04 0.11 <-- BUMRAP+321 1.03 0.14 BUMRAP+531 1.02 0.21 TSP 1.02 0.21 Binky 0.99 0.32 My usual disclamers for those who know me... :o ERROR is the average # of tricks there is in difference between how many tricks we think we can take and how many we actually take. This is calculated using a double dummy evaluation of over a million random hands. SCORE is an estimation of the IMPs/board we expect to gain against a team that uses a simple HCP+321 evaluation method. It’s a measure of how much payoff there is for using a better evaluation system. HCP is A=4, K=3, Q=2, J=1 HCP+321 is HCP + 3 per void + 2 per singleton + 1 per doubleton HCP+531 is the same with more points assigned to shortness Zar is HCP + Controls + twice the length of longest suit + once the length of second-longest suit minus length of shortest suit.http://public.aci.on.ca/~zpetkov/ BUMRAP is a substitute for HCP: A=4.5, K=3, Q=1.5, J=0.75, T=0.25 TSP is the method described in this article. It’s an attempt to find the best evaluator using simple whole numbers. Binky is Thomas Andrew’s evaluator:http://thomaso.best.vwh.net/bridge/valuations/ Tysen Nice score by pavell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 Here's how Pavell's hand evaluation system stacks up compared to some others: Tysen, two requests if possible: 1. I'd like to know how Zar Minus One does: subtract one from the evaluated Zar value, and figure from there. I know Zar is designed to be an aggressive system, so I suspect it's designed so that its trick expectation from a hand is higher than if it were played double-dummy. 2. Can you give us the % of times it overestimated the number of tricks, vs. the % it underestimated? Thanks very muchly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted November 2, 2004 Report Share Posted November 2, 2004 [i know Zar is designed to be an aggressive system, so I suspect it's designed so that its trick expectation from a hand is higher than if it were played double-dummy.The separation of accuracy from aggressiveness has been a big issue of mine. It was one of the contentious points that I had with all of Zar's studies. He was esentially measuring how aggressive different systems were and there was almost no accuracy involved. For my studies, I took the aggressiveness out of the picture by using linear regression. So the computer picks the best "levels" for bidding game and slam that gives each method the best score possible, not relying on the levels given by the authors. So subtracting 1 level from all of the Zar results would give the same numbers. Zar is simply not that accurate. You may be interested in another study I did several months ago: here. It takes a look at how often the methods overbid or underbid. I purposely used a certain subset of hands (hands where NT was not the best contract and also where you could always make at least 9 tricks). I used this subset because it was argued that Zar is more accurate at higher levels and with unbalanced hands. This was the subset of data that made Zar look the best. TSP still performed better. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 For my studies, I took the aggressiveness out of the picture by using linear regression. Ah, excellent. I suspect you've already done my next question, if you haven't tell me and I'll just do it on my own. Both you and Zar use 5 points per trick, and 6421 for HCP.So we should be able to compare distribution points. 4333: Zar has it 4+4+3-3=8, which I'll call base. You have it as 0 points.4432: Zar has it 4+4+4-2=10, or Base+2. You have it as 1+0=1 point.5332: Zar has it 5+5+3-2=11, or Base+3. You have it as 1+1=2 points.6331: Zar has it 6+6+3-1=14, or Base+6. You have it as 3+2=5 points. Do you have a chart comparing how your distribution points figure for each distribution vs. Zar's? I have to admit to being stuck on Goren points for the moment (I'm not that good: sue me), but knowing what other systems consider good or bad distributions helps me a lot for figuring my hand. I'm not sure how to compare it to Pavil's...for one thing, he uses 4 points per trick, and you two use 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I'm not sure how to compare it to Pavil's...for one thing, he uses 4 points per trick, and you two use 5.This should take care of everything: Tricks Tricks Tricks Tricks Error Error Error Real ZAR TSP Pavell ZAR TSP Pavel 4-3-3-3 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 4-4-3-2 0.296 0.400 0.200 0.000 0.233 0.199 1.888 4-4-4-1 0.810 0.600 0.600 0.750 0.132 0.132 0.011 5-3-3-2 0.339 0.600 0.400 0.000 1.057 0.058 1.783 5-4-2-2 0.595 0.800 0.600 0.000 0.445 0.000 3.745 5-4-3-1 0.864 1.000 0.800 0.750 0.239 0.053 0.168 5-4-4-0 1.519 1.200 1.200 1.250 0.127 0.127 0.090 5-5-2-1 1.183 1.200 1.200 0.750 0.001 0.001 0.595 5-5-3-0 1.643 1.400 1.400 1.250 0.053 0.053 0.138 6-3-2-2 0.660 1.000 0.800 0.000 0.652 0.111 2.458 6-3-3-1 0.918 1.200 1.000 0.750 0.274 0.023 0.097 6-4-2-1 1.154 1.400 1.200 0.750 0.285 0.010 0.767 6-4-3-0 1.624 1.600 1.400 1.250 0.001 0.067 0.186 6-5-1-1 1.703 1.600 1.800 1.500 0.007 0.007 0.029 6-5-2-0 1.964 1.800 1.800 1.250 0.018 0.018 0.332 7-2-2-2 0.999 1.200 1.200 0.000 0.021 0.021 0.512 7-3-2-1 1.208 1.600 1.400 0.750 0.289 0.069 0.395 7-3-3-0 1.697 1.800 1.600 1.250 0.003 0.002 0.053 7-4-1-1 1.712 1.800 1.800 1.500 0.003 0.003 0.018 7-4-2-0 1.923 2.000 1.800 1.250 0.002 0.005 0.164 Totals 3.841 0.957 13.429 The first column called "Tricks Real" is the actual number of tricks that each shape is better than a 4-3-3-3 shape. You want your distribution system to come as close to these numbers as possible. The next 3 columns are how the point count system for Zar, TSP, and Pavell's system say that each shape is better than the 4-3-3-3. Note that Zar and TSP use 5 points per trick while Pavel's uses 4. Now you can compare all 3 systems. The last 3 columns is the square of the difference between the point count estimate and the real thing. These are weighted by frequency. Smaller error is better. At the bottom you have the total error, again smaller is better. Pavel gets a horrible score, even though my previous test showed that it was in between Zar and TSP. How is this possible? Well it's due to 2 main factors.My first data used the best number of points per level while this study forces it to be what the author says. Pavell would do much better at 3.7 points per level.My first study also grades the proper scaling of distribution compared to high cards. This study only looks at distribution. This is where Zar falls down because Zar values distribution too much.You can use this table to see what kind of hands each system overvalues and undervalues. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 VOID=6, SINGLETON=3, DOUBLETON=1, NO LENGTH POINTS. Real MPavell 4-3-3-3 0.000 -.100 0.105 Freq 10.5364-4-3-2 0.296 0.350 0.063 Freq 21.5514-4-4-1 0.810 0.850 0.005 Freq 2.9935-3-3-2 0.339 0.350 0.002 Freq 15.5175-4-2-2 0.595 0.600 0.000 Freq 10.585-4-3-1 0.864 0.850 0.003 Freq 12.9315-4-4-0 1.519 1.600 0.008 Freq 1.2435-5-2-1 1.183 1.100 0.022 Freq 3.1745-5-3-0 1.643 1.600 0.002 Freq .8956-3-2-2 0.660 0.600 0.022 Freq 5.6426-3-3-1 0.918 0.850 0.097 Freq 3.4486-4-2-1 1.154 1.100 0.020 Freq 4.7026-4-3-0 1.624 1.600 0.001 Freq 1.3266-5-1-1 1.703 1.600 0.070 Freq .7056-5-2-0 1.964 1.850 0.008 Freq .6517-2-2-2 0.999 0.850 0.011 Freq .5137-3-2-1 1.208 1.100 0.022 Freq 1.8817-3-3-0 1.697 1.600 0.002 Freq .2657-4-1-1 1.712 1.600 0.005 Freq .3927-4-2-0 1.923 1.850 0.002 Freq.362 Total: .470 Heavily Modified: see post below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I just took Pavell's method and added .25 (one point) per doubleton. This seems to be much, much closer to the Real results.Yes, this gives a 5/3/1 system of distribution which I advocated for some time on this forum. I have no idea why Pavell doesn't value doubletons at all. I'm not sure what forumula you used for error, so I didn't do that part.Error = (frequency)*(real-predicted)^2 where frequency is the whole number percent of that hand pattern occurring. 4333 is 10.54, 4432 is 21.55, etc. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Seems like a lot of peaks for quite frequent hand types... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 OK, I changed my chart above to include the fomulas used by Tysen. I then changed three things (two, really) about Pavell's formula: 1. I added .25 tricks (one point) per doubleton.2. I added 1.5 tricks, instead of 1.25 (six points instead of five) per void.3. I guessed that Pavell's formula overvalued the 4333 distribution by .1. Note that I'm not saying that he should add in 'subtract 4/10 of a point if you're 4333'. This is for calculation purposes only: I made 4333 worth -.1, which since 4333 is the baseline for the formula, it added .1 to all of the other values. I included the error in the 4333 calculation in with the other errors. Another way to think of #3 is instead of using 4333 as the baseline, I used 5332. I have no idea if my math is right, but if it is the total is now .470. Not only better than Zar, but better than TSP. The over-valuation of 4333 made the rest of the calculations look off. It would probably look better still if you figured out the exact error of 4333 relative to the other distributions, but I think that's unnecessary. Notice that 4441, 5332, 5422, and 5431 all have an error of .005 or less. That means it's correctly calculating the difference between the trick taking potential of a 4441 hand and a 5431 hand, for example. Neither Zar nor TSP come anywhere near that accuracy for the more frequent hands. It looks to me like using Pavell with 6-3-1 instead of 5-3-0 is the best of the bunch. I'm very curious to know how this modification would affect the overall system in terms of correctly evaluating hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 The principles presented here sound very similar to MIDMAC. It also seems that not a Bidding System is described but a Hand Evaluation System. Am I right Pavell? MIDMAC has the advantage that standard HCP count is used (ace=4 etc), see http://www.midmac.tk for more details. Maybe Pavell can explain where his system differs from other systems? - Probably you will be right if you read only first 2 Chapters. Wait to post the next two Chapters, and the difference between the Hand Evaluation System and the ForcePoint Bidding will appear. Then you will see how to discover your patrtner's EXACT shape below 4♣ (you will do that dynamically, almost not using static bids, even after opps preemtive overcalls), and how to discover your partner's Controls with One Only question, all that leaving more than enough Bidding space for discovering their suits, along with the Queens and the Jack in the longer partner's suit (of course, if you need that information). First two Chapters alone (although they are included in all versions of ForcePoint), are for players who want to streighten their assurance for the final contract's Level, using their bidding system. The original Fp bidding will start with Chapter 3. That will be enough for everyone to understand why this system differ from all other systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'm not a Player, I'm a theorist. Probably you know who was Goren and what he did for the bridge world ? But do you know his players qualification ? I'll leave you to discover it alone :) Dont leave pls B) You just have to understand that many can say thier system is the best, by saying that you dont add anything to how i see your system.You can be just a kid who think he invented the world and no one else know anything, i dont know you. - It is not necessary to know me, simply try the Counting for now, with all hands face up (you can download such a Demo from my site), despite what system you use. Or forget about me, it is OK, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavell Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'm not a Player, I'm a theorist. Probably you know who was Goren and what he did for the bridge world ? But do you know his players qualification ? I'll leave you to discover it alone :) Dont leave pls B) You just have to understand that many can say thier system is the best, by saying that you dont add anything to how i see your system.You can be just a kid who think he invented the world and no one else know anything, i dont know you. I'm 55 and have made the Bidding of ForcePoint for 12 of the last 15 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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