How to bid a 1642 12 count hand

[aguahombre]

Agree with 1H, not 2H to start with (a style thing for us).

Agree with 2H rebid, not 2D.

If I rebid 2D with 6 hearts, I either am prepared never to show the 6th heart or have extra strength and intended to show both suits rather than jump rebid the hearts.

 

If I had rebid 2D, then removed 2NT to 3H ---SAYC, Standard, or 2/1 not withstanding, my partner should assume I was prepared for this to happen and didn't rebid 2H on the second round because of intermediate strength. This makes 3H forcing.

[mikeh]

 

*I see that partner is a passed hand. So, even if one played the sequence hearts - diamonds - hearts as forcing opposite an unpassed hand, it would be nonforcing opposite a passed hand. Whether you want to treat this hand as a weak 2 bid opposite a passed hand is an entirely different issue. I would open the hand 2♥ opposite a passed hand.

Sorry, Art....I don't mean to be rude, but in my view, this makes no sense. Partner's 2N means precisely the same as a passed hand as it does were he unpassed: in both cases it denies an opening hand....in both cases it shows a hand that is invitational to game. So it is the same 10-11.

 

That means that using 1♥ 2♦ 3♥ as forcing opposite an unpassed hand but nf opposite a passed hand has no logic to it at all.

 

In addition, since you appear to agree that this sequence shows more strength than 1♥ 2♥ 3♦, how can it not be forcing opposite an invitational hand? I mean, are you trying to parse hands with 11 hcp from those with 12, or are you, as is standard, trying to parse hands with 11-13 from hands with 13-16 (the overlap is intentional and reflects the fact that the 4321 count is only an approximation of playing strength)?

[WGF_Flame]

They should add likes to the forums so I (and i suspect many more) could like/agree with mikeh.

[ArtK78]

Sorry, Art....I don't mean to be rude, but in my view, this makes no sense. Partner's 2N means precisely the same as a passed hand as it does were he unpassed: in both cases it denies an opening hand....in both cases it shows a hand that is invitational to game. So it is the same 10-11.

 

That means that using 1♥ 2♦ 3♥ as forcing opposite an unpassed hand but nf opposite a passed hand has no logic to it at all.

 

In addition, since you appear to agree that this sequence shows more strength than 1♥ 2♥ 3♦, how can it not be forcing opposite an invitational hand? I mean, are you trying to parse hands with 11 hcp from those with 12, or are you, as is standard, trying to parse hands with 11-13 from hands with 13-16 (the overlap is intentional and reflects the fact that the 4321 count is only an approximation of playing strength)?

Because the hands need not fit. Partner can have a balanced invitational hand and still pass the 3♥ rebid because you didn't jump to game. Unless you have a specific agreement to the contrary, no natural non-jump bid is forcing on a passed hand. Quite frankly, I would play 1♥ - 1NT - 2♦ - 2NT - 3♥ as nonforcing opposite an unpassed hand. Responder's hand could easily have a lot of cards that are essentially useless opposite a 6-4 red suit hand, such as:

 

KQJ xx xxx KJxxx

 

It depends on how much "extra values" you are showing with your 3♥ rebid. Given what passes for an opening bid today, I can see playing 3♥ as nonforcing.

[Antrax]

They should add likes to the forums so I (and i suspect many more) could like/agree with mikeh.

Click the green plus button on the bottom right of his post.

[gordontd]

for me pard rebid 2nt too much....... Iwould just pass 2d.....

He has an 11-count. How much do you think 2NT shows?

[MrAce]

They should add likes to the forums so I (and i suspect many more) could like/agree with mikeh.

 

 

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6492/bbfi.jpg

[the hog]

Zel is right. This is a 2 ♥ opening, I missed the three passes part too. :(

 

rofl. Perhaps in your mind Roland, but not in mine.It is about a King light for me.

[neilkaz]

2♥ for me every time.

 

I'd need something like ♥Kxxxxx ♦AQxx to suppress the fact that I have a 6-long major in order to show a 4-card minor.

 

Yes..I agree and honestly the suit quality difference might have to be even more extreme for me to not rebid 2♥ which also limits the hand nicely.

[han]

I would generally rebid 2D with a 6-4 hand, but with this hand I would definitely rebid 2H. It's not close.

 

Partner being a passed hand argues for rebidding 2H but the main reason is the suit disparity.

[jillybean]

This discussion has grown from the initial, basic question into an interesting thead, I love these forums.

 

There is a solution, should you feel that not being able to show diamonds at your second bid is an issue. The solution belongs in the A/E area, since it involves opener playing transfers over 2N (and doesn't work if opener's second suit is clubs, because there is no way to transfer to 3♣ over responder's 2N)

 

Since this question is now in the I/A forum perhaps you can elaborate, if there is any need.

[WGF_Flame]

thanks for the like explanation.

Like you all :)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If you think your 6-4 is minimum in your style rebid 2 major...if not rebid 2 minor...

 

general principle.

ditto

 

I know it has been pointed out before about 6-4 hands:

 

Bidding 6 - 4 - 6 is stronger than bidding 6 - 6 - 4 .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zel is right. This is a 2 ♥ opening, I missed the three passes part too. :(

Agree . ( Opener is greater than a 12 count w/ 6h ) .

[aguahombre]

I might point out that SAYC is the framework for this thread.

 

Weak two's are 5-11, and there is no redefinition of a 2-bid opener in 4th chair. You might judge to open this hand 2H, but it does not show partner that you have more strength than you would have in another seat.

 

This treatment of a 4th-chair 2bid might be widely practiced, but it is not part of the Yellow Card, and not one of the areas of the Yellow Card predesignated system which is flexible. If this is an opening 2-bid in your agreed style, you are not playing SAYC.

[ggwhiz]

2♥ rebid? or 2♥ opening? This looks like the latter to me...

 

100%. Meanwhile 2♥ is called for to discourage pard (the 1♠ response did nothing to help this hand). Meanwhile responder bidding 3nt over 3♥ is such a serious failure to pay attention that I bar them from any criticism.

[ArtK78]

I might point out that SAYC is the framework for this thread.

 

Weak two's are 5-11, and there is no redefinition of a 2-bid opener in 4th chair. You might judge to open this hand 2H, but it does not show partner that you have more strength than you would have in another seat.

 

This treatment of a 4th-chair 2bid might be widely practiced, but it is not part of the Yellow Card, and not one of the areas of the Yellow Card predesignated system which is flexible. If this is an opening 2-bid in your agreed style, you are not playing SAYC.

Of course a 4th seat weak two bid is different than a weak two bid in any other position. Why would anyone play a weak two in 4th seat as 5-11 HCP? The fact that it is not mentioned in the SAYC booklet doesn't mean that it isn't true. This is not a systemic issue.

[HighLow21]

Of course a 4th seat weak two bid is different than a weak two bid in any other position. Why would anyone play a weak two in 4th seat as 5-11 HCP? The fact that it is not mentioned in the SAYC booklet doesn't mean that it isn't true. This is not a systemic issue.

Actually I'm kind of amazed that 4th seat 2-level bids are indeed not covered in the SAYC booklet. Maybe the guardians of SAYC disagree on the treatment of them.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I might point out that SAYC is the framework for this thread.

 

Weak two's are 5-11, and there is no redefinition of a 2-bid opener in 4th chair. You might judge to open this hand 2H, but it does not show partner that you have more strength than you would have in another seat.

 

This treatment of a 4th-chair 2bid might be widely practiced, but it is not part of the Yellow Card, and not one of the areas of the Yellow Card predesignated system which is flexible. If this is an opening 2-bid in your agreed style, you are not playing SAYC.

As Johnnie Carson would say: " I did not know that ".

[jillybean]

I might point out that SAYC is the framework for this thread.

 

Weak two's are 5-11, and there is no redefinition of a 2-bid opener in 4th chair. You might judge to open this hand 2H, but it does not show partner that you have more strength than you would have in another seat.

 

This treatment of a 4th-chair 2bid might be widely practiced, but it is not part of the Yellow Card, and not one of the areas of the Yellow Card predesignated system which is flexible. If this is an opening 2-bid in your agreed style, you are not playing SAYC.

I think we have moved past the initial (SAYC) question

[mike777]

I think we have moved past the initial (SAYC) question

 

fwiw I would open pards hand one club and end up in 2h or 3h in the 6-1 fit.

 

 

1c=1h

1s=2c(forces 2d)

2d(forced)=2h or 3h.(invite)

[aguahombre]

fwiw I would open pards hand one club and end up in 2h or 3h in the 6-1 fit.

 

 

1c=1h

1s=2c(forces 2d)

2d(forced)=2h or 3h.(invite)

Apparently we haven't moved past the SAYC part, but rather just ignored it as a condition in the OP.

[rmnka447]

The hand is worth an opening bid. You have 3 Quick Tricks and 12 HCP so the hand is worth a 1 H bid.

 

But the hand is a bear minimum. Why?

 

There are a number of reasons.

 

Let's say your hand instead of what you held, the hand was S x H AKxxxx D AJxx C xx. This is a much stronger hand because the As are in your long suits making them stronger. The minor honor, in this case, the J, is working in association with a higher honor. The "same" 12 points -- 2 As, a K and a J, but a much better hand.

 

Let me carry this example one step further and change the example hand even further -- say the hand was S x H AK109xx D AJ10x C xx. The difference this time is that you have intermediate cards working in conjunction with your honors in your long suits. They have created tenace positions in those suits that can reduce the number of loser in those suits.

 

As you can see, there are a number of factors that increase or decrease the trick taking power of any hand given a particular "set" of points -- honors, especially high honors in long suits, minor honors (i.e. Qs and Js) working in conjunction with As and Ks, and having good intermediates with your honors.

 

Now let's look at the actual hand you held -- S A H AKxxxx D xxxx C Jx. One of your As is a singleton rather than in a long suit. Your second suit has no high honor. The J is not working with any other honor (often referred to as a dangling J) and, in fact, is in a doubleton making it virtually worthless. So although you have the values for an opening bid, there are several negative factors to the hand.

 

Top tournament players go through the process of mentally evaluating these factors when looking at their hands. If the positives and negatives off set each other, they'll treat the point count at about where it is. If there are more negatives, then they'll tend to treat the hand as if it were less in value. Conversely, if there are more positives, they'll treat as if were slightly higher in value. Most of them don't necessarily quantify this difference -- but you will hear them refer to a point count as "good", "great", "bad", etc.

 

Your hand would probably be called a "terrible" 12 and at every opportunity they would take the minimum action available.

 

So after partner bids 1 Spade, you take the minimum action of rebidding your heart suit.

 

1 H 1 S

2 H

 

and after partner invites with 2 NT, you simply rebid your hearts again -- bringing home the message that you have an opener with a H suit and that's about it.

 

1 H 1 S

2 H 2 NT

3 H

 

If partner wants to go further he is on his own.

 

BTW, Marty Bergin wrote a short, fairly cheap (7 or 8 bucks) book on Hand Evaluation that goes into the concepts introduced above in more detail and is an excellent introduction to this facet of bidding. I think it's still available.

[helene_t]

I strongly believe 3♥ should be forcing. I usually agree with Nigel but his suggestion to bid 3♣ with hands that want to force is not my cup of tea. OTOH I can certainly imagine playing 3♣ as non-forcing (0544 11-count).

 

KenRexford once said (I don't know how standard this is) that in fouth seat, opening 1♥ and rebidding 2♥ should be weaker than opening 2♥. In that style your hand is probably just good enough to open 2♥.