Puppet Stayman

[Statto]

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

This I did not understand at all. You need invitational values for normal Stayman too unless you are bidding it on an Exit Stayman or Crawling Stayman hand.

I think this means if you're weak with 5-4 in the majors you can't check for a 4-4 fit before signing off in the 5 card major (if you play this as NF, rather than invitational).

[32519]

This thread has received a lot of emotional feedback defending Puppet Stayman, probably from people who use it. All the negatives listed on Chris Ryall's website posed the question, “Is Puppet Stayman really worth the effort?”

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but these forums are here for less experienced players to learn from the more experienced ones. I am now asking these more experienced players to compile a comprehensive convincing list of advantages “Why anyone should switch to Puppet Stayman?” I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

 

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 1NT

1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range.

2.

3.

4.

 

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 2NT

1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range

2.

3.

4.

 

I will be the first to apologise if the list of advantages are enough, therein not requiring a rethink of Puppet Stayman

[gwnn]

I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

Maybe kindly read the f**** thread?

[Quantumcat]

My two cents.

 

Over a 1NT Opening Bid

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range

 

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

It is standard to include all balanced hands in NT openings even if you don't use puppet stayman.

 

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I would as soon forget I was playing Puppet Stayman instead of Regular Stayman as forget I was playing Keycard Blackwood and not regular Blackwood.

 

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

Exactly the same amount as regular Stayman - in fact less, if the auction goes 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3NT - they don;t know which 4-card major opener has, whereas 2NT 3♣ 3♥ 3NT tells them explicitly.

 

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

And common sense too - anytime you have two fits, better to play in the weaker hand's fit. The rationale being they have fewer entries and once it is set up it might be stranded. While if it is trumps, the small cards will always take tricks. This is the same reason that with a yarborough and a five card major opposite a 1NT opening, you always transfer to the suit. In 1NT that suit would be useless.

 

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit).

This is ALWAYS a problem - nothing whatsoever to do with Puppet Stayman.

 

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3♦ bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

 

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

It is standard to always open 1NT or 2NT with a balanced hand and the right point-count - if you don't you are living in the (long-distant) past.

 

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

Again, whenever you have a balanced hand!

 

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

Easy - bid your minor. That usually shows slam interest with a long minor suit. Opener can reject the slam invite with 4NT. More importantly, is after 2NT 3♣ 3NT (no major). The solution? Play Muppet Stayman, where the 3♥ and 3NT bids are switched. Then 3♠ after 3♥ is minor suit stayman.

 

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

Actually, you only want to play in 3NT with a major suit fit when you have an excess of high-card points (27-30 for 3NT instead of 4-major, 34 - 37 for 6NT instead of 6-major - with 31-33 and a major fit, you'd usually try for 6-major). In this situation, you are often making the same number of tricks in NT as the major, as well as having safety when the suit splits badly (you should have enough high cards outside of the major to find nine tricks). When you don't have an excess of high cards, it is better to play in the major, for safety against them finding the killer lead, or any of the other three suits splitting badly.

 

The most useful time to have Puppet Stayman in your arsenal is when you want to overcall 2NT over 2♥ but you have five spades and are worried they might be lost, whereas if you overcall 2♠ you don;t get across your shape and strength. Perfect solution - play Puppet Stayman over natural 2NT overcalls, then you never need worry about losing that 5-card major!

[MrAce]

I nominate this thread as "most quotes used thread" in all times :D

[mgoetze]

Actually Erin, you can show both 5♠4♥ and 4♠5♥ hands nicely by using Smolen after Regular Stayman.

[campboy]

Actually, LESS information is transferred - using it more often means the opponents are less likely to know what's going on. The old adage of always leading a major against 2NT-3NT or 1NT-3NT because responder failed to use stayman is lost - responder could equally well use stayman whether he has his own major or not! Also, the 3♦ bid showing a four-card major doesn't disclose which it is, so less information is given to the opponents than regular stayman.

That argument is flawed. If the auction starts 2NT - 3♣ - 3♦ using puppet then either responder is going to enquire further or he would not have bid (4-card) Stayman if he wasn't playing puppet. In the former case oppo will find out which major opener has anyway; in the latter case puppet has given away information about opener's hand.

[32519]

One of our regular posters gives the thumbs down on Puppet Stayman in this thread (post number 2).

[aguahombre]

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here:

 

How about this scheme:

 

3♣ stayman, responses as follows:

 

3♦: no 4 card major, no 5 card ♥ suit, may have 5♠

3♥: 4 hearts, may have 4♠

3♠: 4♠, denies 4♥

3N: 5♥

 

Over 3♦, responder bids 3♥ with all non-smolen hands, and bids 3♠ with 4♠ and longer hearts, 3N with 4♥s and longer spades, non-forcing, and 4♥ with 4♥ and longer spades, unwilling to play 3N (too strong or too shapely).

 

Over 3♥, which may have spades as well as hearts, responder bids 3♠ to puppet to 3N, denying spades, and either 3N or 4N or 5N with 4 spades...3N to pass or correct, 4N as invitational, p/c and 5n as forcing with 4♠.

 

Over the 3N response to 3♣, 4♦ by responder transfers to hearts.

 

This seems to cover all of the relevant bases and allows one to use puppet as well as smolen while (usually) getting the strong hand as declarer.

[glen]

Another poster supplies a very good alternative to Puppet and the continuations after a 2NT opening here: ...

See note 14 on this 2007 Bermuda Bowl cc (Frukacz was on Consus Red team that lost yesterday in the Vandy):

 

frukacz-klimowicz.pdf

[32519]

The effort expended to overcome the shortfalls of Puppet Stayman is truly amazing. Is the diversity and complexity of the continuation bidding structure (not to mention added memory load) really worth all this effort just to have the luxury of being able to include a 5-card major into your 2NT range?

 

Why not try something much simpler?

2♣ = 20+ HCP unbalanced (which would make room for your 5-card major), or 22+ HCP any

2NT = 20-21 HCP denying a 5-card major

The continuation bidding structures could look something like this:

2♣ = 20+ unbalanced or 22+ any

....2♦ = Waiting 5-7 HCP

....2♥ = Double negative 0-4 HCP (because the 2♣ HCP range has been lowered, you can increase the negative response by 1 HCP)

....Anything else = 8+ HCP according to partnership agreement

After 2♦ it is easy to show your 5-card major on the 2-level instead of the 3-level.

After the 2♥ Double Negative, the 2♣ bidder bids appropriately which can include Pass with a 20 HCP count and a 5-card ♥ suit. Unfortunately the strong hand is on table but you are less likely to go down in a 2-level contract than a 3-level contract. With 5♠, it is easy to correct to 2♠ over 2♥.

If you don’t want the strong hand on the table, try this:

2♣-3♣ (double negative). This way you are 1 level higher but with the strong hand declaring with a 5-card ♥ suit. Anything else other than 2♣-3♣ can promise 5+ HCP. [bad idea as pointed out by Zalandakh]

 

With 2NT denying a 5-card major, you get to keep all your old gadgets e.g. Garbage Stayman, Smolen. The reduced memory load is considerable.

[mike777]

yet agian puppet seems silly........

 

 

 

whatever gain seems tiny

[Zelandakh]

The effort expended to overcome the shortfalls of Puppet Stayman is truly amazing.

Which shortfalls specifically. Can you name me a common hand type that a puppet-based scheme cannot handle which a Staymanic scheme could?

 

Why not try something much simpler?

2♣ = 20+ HCP unbalanced (which would make room for your 5-card major), or 22+ HCP any

Well my 2♣ opening is 10-14 and natural; but assuming I was playing a natural system for a moment...

 

2♣ = 20+ unbalanced or 22+ any

... -3♣ (double negative).

How do you plan to continue after this? You have to manage all 22+ balanced hands as well as Acol 2s and game-forcing hands in all suits - at the 3 level. Go away and test this for a few hands and then come back and tell us again that it is a good and simple idea. Do you not think that if there were a much simpler and better method that most of the multitude of expert partnerships playing some variation on Puppet would not be using it? The truth is that a well-designed Puppet scheme gives you more options over 2NT. There are minuses too for sure and it is much easier to misuse Puppet than regular Stayman. However, the majority seem to believe that overall the benefits outweigh the detractions. I happen to agree with this but am always open to a better method when I find it. Unfortunately the method above is not.

[32519]

When is responder allowed to pass 2NT when your 2NT may include a 5-card major and 20-21 HCP?

[Zelandakh]

When is responder allowed to pass 2NT when your 2NT may include a 5-card major and 20-21 HCP?

When they do not have enough for game.

[32519]

So you feel that playing 2NT which includes a 5-card major opposite a bust is better than playing 2♥ or 2♠ opposite a bust? Those trumps may just become vital. If 2NT makes versus 2M making, it is a push at IMPs. On the other hand, 2M making versus 2NT down 1, the gain is big.

 

I can understand players using Puppet Stayman if their 2♣ meaning is something like yours. Natural systems (2/1, SAYC), wont convince me to include Puppet Stayman.

[Zelandakh]

So you feel that playing 2NT which includes a 5-card major opposite a bust is better than playing 2♥ or 2♠ opposite a bust? Those trumps may just become vital. If 2NT makes versus 2M making, it is a push at IMPs. On the other hand, 2M making versus 2NT down 1, the gain is big.

 

I can understand players using Puppet Stayman if their 2♣ meaning is something like yours. Natural systems (2/1, SAYC), won’t convince me to include Puppet Stayman.

Remind me again how we are playing 2M after the start 2♣ - 3♣, which is the equivalent auction to 2NT - p in your proposed method to which I was referring. You also have a second method with a 2♥ bust. That is probably better but now you have to jump to 3♠ just to show a game-forcing hand. Again, play with this a bit before suggesting this is an improvement. Is it really worth crippling your constructive bidding just to avoid playing an extremely simple and easy convention like Puppet?

 

And just so you know, in my strong club system 1♣ - 1♦; 2NT - 3♣ is indeed a form of Puppet Stayman; similarly for 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 2NT - 3♣. I also play it after a 1NT opening as well as after 1♣ - 1♦; 1NT and 1♣ - 1♦; 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT. In other words, pretty much whenever I can. This allows all of the other openings to be unbalanced. As I wrote earlier this is actually a major point that you are missing in your analysis. If I could not handle any major hand types using it then I would not. This is the other major aspect of Puppet and I will re-iterate it since I think you missed it the first time around.

 

Can you name me a common hand type that a puppet-based scheme cannot handle which a Staymanic scheme could?

 

I do understand bluecalm's position that the artificial bids are too vulnerable to easy doubles from the opponents. I may not agree but it is a perfectly valid opinion. I do not understand a position which says Puppet is too complicated while throwing extra hand types into the 2♣ opening is not. Or that it is possible to move hands out of a 2NT opening without it impacting other areas of the system. Or indeed that the analysis you posted has any bearing or weight whatsoever. Indeed I have not seen you address any of the points I raised in my (longest post ever) message, nor those from the other posters that took the time to respond.

 

The truth is that I have now written several lengthy responses to bidding queries that you have raised, using time that I could have spent doing some of the work I am being paid for. I am starting to reach the conclusion that this effort is probably not worth it. It would be nice if you could prove me wrong in this regard...

[Codo]

Zel, the good thing is: Otheres do read your posts too and find them always helpful and insightful. So please continue your postings- even if you have to fead the troll to do so.

[G_R__E_G]

So you feel that playing 2NT which includes a 5-card major opposite a bust is better than playing 2♥ or 2♠ opposite a bust? Those trumps may just become vital. If 2NT makes versus 2M making, it is a push at IMPs. On the other hand, 2M making versus 2NT down 1, the gain is big.

 

For another example of an excellent use of logic please see this video.....

[32519]

The truth is that I have now written several lengthy responses to bidding queries that you have raised, using time that I could have spent doing some of the work I am being paid for. I am starting to reach the conclusion that this effort is probably not worth it. It would be nice if you could prove me wrong in this regard...

 

Zel

 

For what its worth, I dont believe that either of us is going to back down on why we use Puppet Stayman or dont use Puppet Stayman. On this one we will probably have to agree to disagree.

 

Responder with a Bust Hand

Probably these are the main reasons why Im not interested in Puppet Stayman:

1. Playing 2NT with 20-21 HCP and a 5332 holding opposite a bust inevitably plays poorly. Unable to stop the opponents running your 2-card suit gets you a bad result. Higher up this thread I suggested something simpler. OK, so suggesting using 2♣-3♣ as a double negative was bad. But what about 2♣-2♥ as the double negative? Sure you will get plenty of hands with the strong hand on table playing in 2♥, but more often than not, it will have better chances than a 2NT 5332 hand.

2. With a 4450 or 4441 hand (♣ shortness), I lose Garbage Stayman with a bust. I hear you say that this is countered by Exit Stayman.

3. With 4405 or 4414 or 4423 (♦ shortness), I lose Crawling Stayman as well.

 

In summary, opposite a bust, opportunities to improve the auction are limited. In a different thread, someone else calculated the % of 2NT auctions going down. An interesting stat forming part of this % would be knowing how many Puppet players were forced to pass 2NT which ended up going down.

 

Responder with a Game Forcing Hand

1. Obviously with a game forcing response you have more options. Even if you dont always end up in the ideal final contract (3NT versus 4M), the fact that the contract gets made, masks the overall effectiveness of Puppet Stayman.

2. The Puppet Stayman structures that I am more familiar with, concentrate on the majors. Chris Ryalls website includes a discussion on some of the problems that others have encountered with PS as well as suggestions how others have overcome these problems. As soon as you have to create additional bids to overcome any problem identified, you are adding to the memory load. Some players are better than others when coping with memory load.

3. Some of these additional bids have to do with right-siding the contract.

4. When responder has a minor suit orientated hand, inevitably more bids end up being made allowing the opponents more options for lead directing doubles.

5. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. 3NT making 9 tricks versus 4M major making 10 tricks costs 1 IMP. 3NT making 10 tricks versus 4M making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain. I just dont believe that PS is worth this risk.

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or a 5-3 ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit. To overcome this, you are again adding additional bids to the memory load.

 

In closing I have this to say. In my books you are still rated as one of my favourite posters. Your posts are informative and objective, seldom if ever subjective. I place high value on the things you post. But on Puppet Stayman I think we will need to agree to disagree.

 

Zel, the good thing is: Otheres do read your posts too and find them always helpful and insightful. So please continue your postings- even if you have to fead the troll to do so.

 

Ditto ad infinitum. I fully second Codo's statement here. Whatever you do, don't stop posting.

 

Best wishes

 

Andrew (32519)

[helene_t]

Exactly the same amount as regular Stayman - in fact less, if the auction goes 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3NT - they don;t know which 4-card major opener has, whereas 2NT 3♣ 3♥ 3NT tells them explicitly.

But 2NT 3♣ 3♦ 3NT shows that responder has no 4-card major so she would not use regular stayman in the first place.

 

OTOH, using PS

2NT-3♣

3♦-3♥

3♠-4♠

Here opponents won't know if opener has four hearts or not, while after the regular stayman auction

2NT-3♣

3♥-3NT

4♠

they will.

 

Opps will get the oportunity to double both clubs and hearts, though, if you play PS.

[nige1]

<i><b>PINOCCHIO</b></i> is based on an <i><b>Italian</b></i> variant of Muppet Stayman, in which responder consistently <i><b>lies</b></i>.  That is, he hardly ever bids a suit that he holds. Main advantages:<br><ul class="bbc"><li>You find <i><b>all</b></i> 4-4, 5-3 and 3-5 major fits.</li><li>You "<i><b>right-side</b></i>" them all.</li></ul><br>Some disadvantages<br><ul class="bbc"><li>Hard to remember</li><li>Costly to forget.</li><li>Leaks information useful to defenders.</li><li>Allows lead-directing doubles.</li><li>Cuts out garbage Stayman (over 1N).</li></ul><br>When partner's notrump bid is the first natural bid by our side, then a 3♣ reply is a major-suit enquiry and other responses are tranfers. <br><br>Responder adopts the <b><i>client</i> </b>role, asking questions.  The notrump opener is cast in the <i><b>server</b></i> role, answering those questions.<br><br>2N - ?? <br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♣  = REL. <i><b>Pinocchio</b></i>. Flattish with game+ interest in Ms or slam-interest in ms. 5 ♠s and 3+ ♥s.</li><li>3♦ = TFR. 5+ ♥s. Denies 3 ♠s.</li><li>3♥ = TFR. 5+ ♠s and 0-2 ♥s.</li><li>3♠ = ART. Range ask. Often 6+ ♣s.</li><li>3N = S/O. To play.</li><li>4♣/4♦/4♥ = TFR. 6+ suit.</li></ul><br><i><b>Pinocchio</b></i> 3♣ is a variant of <i><b> Eric Crowhurst</b></i>'s <i><b>Five-card Stayman</b></i>. (<i><b>Precision Bidding in Acol</b></i>, 1974).<br><br>2N  – 3♣<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♦ = ART. 4 M.</li><li>3♥ = ART No 4 M.</li><li>3♠ = NAT 5 ♠s.</li><li>3N = 5 ♥ (then 4♦ = retransfer).</li></ul>When <br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – ??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♥ = ART. ART 4+ ♠s  (e.g.  5 ♠ and 3 ♥ so you would have been OK if opener had bid 3N).</li><li>3♠ = PUP. To 3N.</li><li>3N  = P/C. 4 ♥s.</li><li>4♣ = ART. 4♥s and (4 ♣s and/or 4 ♦s).</li><li>4♦ = ART. 4 ♥s & 4 ♠s  Game-only.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♠ = NAT. 3 ♠.</li><li>3N = NAT. 2 ♠.</li><li>4♣ = KEY. 0/3. 4 ♠.</li><li>4♦ = KEY. 1/4 4 ♠.</li><li>4♥ = KEY. 2/5. 4 ♠.</li><li>4♠ = KEY. 2+Q. ♠.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - ??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>3N = S/O. To play.</li><li>4♣ = S/T. 4+ ♣s.</li><li>4♦ = S/T. 4+ ♦s.</li><li>4♥ = S/T. 5+ ♠s.</li><li>4♠ = S/O. To play.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - 4♣<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4♦ = NEG. 2-3 ♣s.</li><li>4♥ = KEY. 0/3. 4+ ♣s.</li><li>4♠ = KEY. 1/4. 4+ ♣s.</li><li>4N = KEY. 2/5. 4+ ♣s.</li><li>4♠ = KEY. 2/5+Q. 4+ ♣s.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - 4♣<br>4♦ - ??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4♥ = S/T. 5+ ♣s</li><li>4♠ = S/T. 4+ ♦s.</li><li>4N = S/O.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - 4♣<br>4♦ - 4♥<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4♠ = NEG. 2 ♣s.</li><li>4N/5♣/5♦]5♥ = KEY. 3 ♣s.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - 4♣<br>4♦ - 4♠<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4N = NEG. 2-3 ♦s.</li><li>5♣/5♦/5♥/5♠ = KEY. 4+ ♦s.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♦ – 3♥<br>3♠ - 4♦<br>??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4♥ = NEG. 2-3 ♦s.</li><li>4♠/4N/5♣/5♦ = KEY. 4+ ♦s.</li></ul><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♥ – ??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>4♣ = S/T. 4+ ♣s.</li><li>4♦ = S/T. 4 + ♦s.</li></ul><br><br>2N – 3♣<br>3♥ – 3♠<br>3N - ??<br><br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♠ = Puppet to 3N.</li><li>3N = P/C. 5 ♠s.</li><li>4♣ = S/T. 3♣s.</li><li>4♦ = S/T. 3[Di}s.</li><li>4♥ = S/T. 5+ ♠s.</li></ul>Note that transfers also apply with responder's rebid e.g,<br><br>2N - 3♦<br>3♥ - ??<br><ul class="bbc"><li>3♠ = PUPPET to 3N, 52xy.</li><li>3N = P/C. 4 ♠ and 5 ♥s.</li><li>4♣  = S/T. 4+ ♦s.</li><li>4♦ = S/T. 4+ ♣s.</li></ul> <br>With 5 ♥  and 4 ♠, you start with a transfer to right side both majors: 2N –  3♦ – 3♥ – 3N.<br>With 5 ♥ but without 4 ♠, you transfer and puppet: 2N - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3♠  - 3N.<br>With 5 ♠ but only 2 ♥, you simply transfer;  2N-3♥-3♠-3N.<br>With 5♠ and 3-4 ♥ you can start 2N - 3♣ - etc..

[jdeegan]

:P This is a nice thread. It has convinced me to play 3♣ as puppet over a 1NT open, and 3♣ as puppet over a 2NT open (Smolen must be considered the lesser benefit).

 

What it has not helped me with is the ever vexing problem of investigating a minor suit slam after a 2NT opener when I, the responder, have a good 6 card minor and our partnership has about 30+ HCP. Any ideas?

[Finch]

This thread has received a lot of emotional feedback defending Puppet Stayman, probably from people who use it. All the negatives listed on Chris Ryall's website posed the question, “Is Puppet Stayman really worth the effort?”

 

Maybe I’m wrong, but these forums are here for less experienced players to learn from the more experienced ones. I am now asking these more experienced players to compile a comprehensive convincing list of advantages “Why anyone should switch to Puppet Stayman?” I will place the first one. Kindly add the rest:

 

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 1NT

1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range.

2.

3.

4.

 

Advantages of playing Puppet Stayman: Over 2NT

1. Can include a 5-card major suit holding within your 1NT range

2.

3.

4.

 

I will be the first to apologise if the list of advantages are enough, therein not requiring a rethink of Puppet Stayman

 

Really I honestly don't see why I should. You obviously aren't interested in reading what people have to say, because there are four pages of thread explaining many of the advantages and disadvantages in detail. You keep going on, and on, about the fact that the 'only' advantage of playing Puppet stayman is to find a 5-3 fit but it's not. You obviously aren't going to change your mind and, what's more, I honestly don't really care if you do or not. I don't have anything to gain by persuading other people to play methods I like - I don't mind explaining them if people are interested, but I'm not in the business of selling bidding system.

 

I play a form of puppet in response to a 2NT opening, and I'd continue to play something similar even if I never put a 5-card major into my 2NT opening. The value in playing (effectively) a 3C response as a relay, rather than a 'bid your 4-card major' response, is that you gain a lot of possible sequences in a cramped auction.

 

Your concern about very weak hands in response to a 2NT opening is misplaced. It's a very rare situation, and sometimes the opponents are cold for game anyway. If you hate the very idea of having to get to 2NT opposite a very weak hand, then play a strong 1C/1D system instead: that's the real solution, not mucking around with 2C auctions that are already difficult to manage.

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Really I honestly don't see why I should. You obviously aren't interested in reading what people have to say, because there are four pages of thread explaining many of the advantages and disadvantages in detail. You keep going on, and on, about the fact that the 'only' advantage of playing Puppet stayman is to find a 5-3 fit but it's not. You obviously aren't going to change your mind and, what's more, I honestly don't really care if you do or not. I don't have anything to gain by persuading other people to play methods I like - I don't mind explaining them if people are interested, but I'm not in the business of selling bidding system.

 

I play a form of puppet in response to a 2NT opening, and I'd continue to play something similar even if I never put a 5-card major into my 2NT opening. The value in playing (effectively) a 3C response as a relay, rather than a 'bid your 4-card major' response, is that you gain a lot of possible sequences in a cramped auction.

 

Your concern about very weak hands in response to a 2NT opening is misplaced. It's a very rare situation, and sometimes the opponents are cold for game anyway. If you hate the very idea of having to get to 2NT opposite a very weak hand, then play a strong 1C/1D system instead: that's the real solution, not mucking around with 2C auctions that are already difficult to manage.

 

Hi Frances

 

Partner and I were playing a very basic version of Puppet Stayman which concentrated on the majors (little effort was made to include minor suit orientated hands from responder).

 

This thread was started when we started asking “why all this PS fuss?” The times when either of us held a 5332 20-21 HCP hand was seldom. More often than not we ended up playing in a 4-4 major suit fit, or a 5-3 major suit fit with responder holding the 5-card suit not the opener. We got there via Jacoby transfer bids.

 

So I looked up the frequency of occurrence of typical 20-21 HCP NT hands. This is what I found: The probability of being dealt –

1. 5332 and 20-21 HCP = 0.08% (5-card major, minor 5-card suits excluded)

2. 4432 and 20-21 HCP = 0.08%

3. 4333 and 20-21 HCP = 0.12%

...Total.........................= 0.28%

 

The probability of being dealt a bust –

1. 4450 and 0-4 HCP = 0.01% Club shortness (losing Garbage Stayman)

2. 4441 and 0-4 HCP = 0.07% Club shortness (losing Garbage Stayman)

3. 4405 and 0-4 HCP = 0.01% Diamond shortness (losing Crawling Stayman)

4. 4414 and 0-4 HCP = 0.07% Diamond shortness (losing Crawling Stayman)

5. 4423 and 0-4 HCP = 0.17% Diamond shortness (losing Crawling Stayman)

...Total.....................= 0.33%

Less benefit of 5332..= (0.08%)

Net benefit/loss.........= 0.25%

 

Having no mechanism to improve the auction when responder has a bust, we were in a net loss situation.

 

Seeing the numbers, partner and I decided to dump PS. The majority of the face-to-face bridge we play is match points. The decision to dump PS became even easier when we were getting a top score in 3NT making 10 tricks when the rest of the field were making 10 tricks in a major.

 

I respect your decision for playing PS. I’m just saying why I dumped it.