Puppet Stayman

[bluecalm]

Yes I mean after 2N and I mean puppet in general as a convention designed to detect 5 card majors in opener hand at the cost of bidding space better used for other things.

 

 

I am an avid student of what "elite" partnerships do to tweak their structure, but not a critic of them, since they have given a lot of thought into the plusses, minuses, and inferences involved.

 

My attitude is to give a lot of respect to opinions of elite players and my default is to strongly believe that what they are doing is in fact best. Here though I spent enough time to analyse it to have my own opinion and be almost sure they get it wrong.

This is small error though and doesn't cost them that much in the long run so that's probably they either missed it or didn't bother to fix it. Or I could be wrong of course :)

[mgoetze]

For those who don’t know what mgoetze is referring to, you will need the read the thread Defence to a 1NT Opening Bid (post 83 on page 5 of this thread and post 97 also on page 5).

I feel cheated rereading the last paragraph of your post 97.

 

So thanks to those who chose to answer honestly and sensibly. The day we meet, I am sure that mgoetze and I will become good friends. Until then, I would like to request mgoetze to do a review of my book and do a write up in the Bridge Material Review Forum. When you do, please bear in mind what I said in the “Defence to a 1NT Opening Bid” thread.

Sure, no problem. You can find the mailing address for the review copy by querying the PSI-USA whois database for mgoetze.net.

 

 

Puppet stayman eats up precious and, especially after 2NT opening, deficient resource which is bidding space. If you use it with run of the mill 3-2 in majors hand you will be worse of than people who bid direct 3NT because first you usually don't have 5-3 fit anyway, second it may not play better than 3nt and third and most important you give them free information and chance to double 3C. 3-1-(5-4) hands are too rare to bother about them and again usually you don't have 5-3 major fit anyway but are leaking info as always.

Imo the convention sucks and is probably the worst convention used by elite partnerships.

 

"Convention X is bad because people use it when they shouldn't" is surely a classical model for a strawman argument. So, (31)(54) hands are too rare for you. What about 33(52) or 33(61) hands? Etc.

 

Of course since you never have a 5-3 major fit anyway you should surely not play Puppet Stayman or anything of the sort. I sometimes do have a 5-3 major fit, however, so I will continue to play it.

[bluecalm]

"Convention X is bad because people use it when they shouldn't" is surely a classical model for a strawman argument. So, (31)(54) hands are too rare for you. What about 33(52) or 33(61) hands? Etc.

 

I said that with those rare hand when you could want to use puppet you are probably not better off anyway because of free info given but even if you are better off with those very rare hands you lose on run of the mill hands when you need space for different things than checking for 5 card major.

My argument wasn't: "people use it when they shouldn't" but "it covers very rare situations when it's not clear you are better off anyway but it costs you with hands which are both frequent and more important to cover.

[mgoetze]

I said that with those rare hand when you could want to use puppet you are probably not better off anyway because of free info given but even if you are better off with those very rare hands you lose on run of the mill hands when you need space for different things than checking for 5 card major.

My argument wasn't: "people use it when they shouldn't" but "it covers very rare situations when it's not clear you are better off anyway but it costs you with hands which are both frequent and more important to cover.

 

Maybe your argument would be more convincing if you could point out some of those extremely common hands which you can't bid with puppet stayman?

 

Oh by the way since you are so very very worried about leaking information, compare 2NT-3♣-3♦-3♥-3♠-4♠ (puppet) with 2NT-3♣-3♥-3NT-4♠ (standard).

[awm]

Over 2nt, I'd be concerned about:

 

1. Being able to bid "Smolen" hands

2. Right siding

3. Being able to put some minor slam tries thru 3c

4. Avoiding lead directing X where possible

 

Puppet variants typically have trouble with some of these (which depends on the version).

 

Over 1nt its more complex because there are so many structures but I think typically you can help yourself more by using 3c to show some shapely hand than by having two stayman bids.

[mike777]

I always wondered about the great love for puppet stayman

 

The great horror seems to be you might, only might, play in 3nt rather than 5-3 fit.

[Cthulhu D]

I assume you mean after 2NT; and also assume you mean if they use continuations other that those which Mikeh recommended in a previous thread which I can't find at the moment.

 

I am an avid student of what "elite" partnerships do to tweak their structure, but not a critic of them, since they have given a lot of thought into the plusses, minuses, and inferences involved.

 

Aside from that, those critical of Americans in general are mostly those who haven't gotten over the results in 1776 or 1812. Most Americans, gauche as we are, have gotten past it.

 

But not 1865. The world turns.

 

Anyway, I thought playing 1NT - 3C; as puppet and 1NT - 2C; as regular stayman was fairly standard? Best of both worlds and all that.

[mike777]

But not 1865. The world turns.

 

Anyway, I thought playing 1NT - 3C; as puppet and 1NT - 2C; as regular stayman was fairly standard? Best of both worlds and all that.

 

 

t5rust me that is not standard in acbl world......not even close.

 

 

I read alot of around the world magazines I just heard of it the last year or so.......often at very top levels.

In other words even in print it is still pretty rare let alone non wc levels.

[Cthulhu D]

t5rust me that is not standard in acbl world......not even close.

 

 

I read alot of around the world magazines I just heard of it the last year or so.......often at very top levels.

In other words even in print it is still pretty rare let alone non wc levels.

 

Hah, I'm from a large country town in Australia a.k.a the capital, so I see a tiny part of a tiny puddle of the bridge world, and a given club night is a mixed of brown, red and blue stickers and coughs up precision, ACOL, 2/1 GF, Australian Standard (which isn't very 'standard' including as it does people playing variable NT, brown sticker pre-empts agogo and one pair that plays benji 2s?!?) and MOSCITO so I have no perspective on 'standard'

 

What do people use the 3C bid for? Both minors weak I'm guessing, but you can use Minor suit stayman for that unless you are playing four suited transfers. So the cost is you cannot right side contracts of 3 of a minor when responder is weak and opener doesn't have Hxx or better in diamonds and you play 4 suited transfers. Eh who cares.

 

After 2NT I suspect it's somewhat less clear.

 

@: VVVVVVVV Makes sense, though couldn't 4 suited transfers then bidding again show the same thing?

[wyman]

Hah, I'm from a large country town in Australia a.k.a the capital, so I see a tiny part of a tiny puddle of the bridge world. What do people use the 3C bid for?

 

i use it as a natural slam try or i flip the minors and use it as a diamond slam try depending on who I'm playing with.

[aguahombre]

But not 1865. The world turns.

 

America lost that one. You are right. But only because we were fighting each other. Then, later the politicians lost a couple.

[Cthulhu D]

America lost that one. You are right. But only because we were fighting each other. Then, later the politicians lost a couple.

 

Edit: This is so off-topic I'm going to PMs.

[mike777]

Hah, I'm from a large country town in Australia a.k.a the capital, so I see a tiny part of a tiny puddle of the bridge world, and a given club night is a mixed of brown, red and blue stickers and coughs up precision, ACOL, 2/1 GF, Australian Standard (which isn't very 'standard' including as it does people playing variable NT, brown sticker pre-empts agogo and one pair that plays benji 2s?!?) and MOSCITO so I have no perspective on 'standard'

 

What do people use the 3C bid for? Both minors weak I'm guessing, but you can use Minor suit stayman for that unless you are playing four suited transfers. So the cost is you cannot right side contracts of 3 of a minor when responder is weak and opener doesn't have Hxx or better in diamonds and you play 4 suited transfers. Eh who cares.

 

After 2NT I suspect it's somewhat less clear.

 

@: VVVVVVVV Makes sense, though couldn't 4 suited transfers then bidding again show the same thing?

 

I have read Ausi bridge for decades and decades.....perhaps I missed this but this does seem to be a "modern" usage

 

 

even granted ausi bridge is very often on the cutting edge...esp compared to acbl.

 

 

fwiw I play 1nt=3c is invite....long clubs..I grant this is old

 

but then I dont even play puppet

[barmar]

t5rust me that is not standard in acbl world......not even close.

My guess is 10-20% of advanced+ players, and hardly any intermediates or lower.

 

1NT 3♣ is used for a wide variety of things, I don't think there's any concensus, and most players don't have any strong preference. When making a card with a pickup partner, the quickest agreement is to use all the 3-level responses to show 5-5 hands; 3♣/3♦ show weak/strong minors, 3♥/3♠ show weak/strong majors. In my experience, whatever you decide to use them for never comes up in the few sessions you play with them.

[32519]

So let’s try and analyse what we win and what we lose playing Puppet Stayman.

 

Over a 1NT Opening Bid

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range

2. You can have the best of both worlds by playing 2♣ as Standard Stayman and 3♣ as Puppet Stayman. The downside with this approach is that you need 10-12 HCP to initiate Puppet Stayman.

 

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

 

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

2. Play in a 5-3 major fit instead of 3NT

3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

 

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

5. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit). Niemeijer can fix this problem but you run the risk of forgetting what the bids mean (2NT-3NT = Niemeijer, 5♠+4♥). To play in 3NT you must first bid 3♣. Others use 3♠ to play in 3NT but this also comes at a cost. 3♠ either MSS or a transfer to ♣ is lost. Others play 3♠ = 5♠+4♥ but again at a cost. The strong hand is exposed on the table when in ♠.

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

11. The loss of Smolen

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

 

Chris Ryall’s website on the plusses and minuses of playing Puppet Stayman should be read by all. Click here

 

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

 

Topic closed.

 

Thank you.

[Zelandakh]

I needed to split this post in four as it is apparently too large...

 

So lets try and analyse what we win and what we lose playing Puppet Stayman.

It is good to analyse such things but if you do then you need to do it properly, ideally from practical use and evaluation.

 

Over a 1NT Opening Bid

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 1NT range

2. You can have the best of both worlds by playing 2♣ as Standard Stayman and 3♣ as Puppet Stayman. The downside with this approach is that you need 10-12 HCP to initiate Puppet Stayman.

I think you need to separate out using 2♣ as puppet from using 3♣ as puppet. These are different animals and come with differing pros and cons.

 

 

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman

This is completely untrue for 3♣ Puppet and a misrepresentation for 2♣ Puppet. In the latter case your Exit Stayman hands change from 3+♥, 3+♠, 4+♦ to 2+♥, 2+♠, 5+♦ and you also gain the ability to (usually) get out in 2♦. This tends to be pretty much a wash overall. What you do lose with 2♣ Puppet is Crawling Stayman - perhaps this is what you meant though since Garbage Stayman is a term that means different things to different people (it means the same as Exit Stayman to me).

 

 

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

Why is the follow-up bidding harder after Puppet than normal Stayman?

 

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

This I did not understand at all. You need invitational values for normal Stayman too unless you are bidding it on an Exit Stayman or Crawling Stayman hand.

 

4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

This one is fair - there are usually more bids to double in a Puppet sequence than with regular Stayman.

 

5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

Clearly true! This is no problem so long as you do not lose the ability to show any hand types though.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

2. Play in a 5-3 major fit instead of 3NT

3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

I am not at all sure about the last of these. I do not recall it being easier to bid a major suit slam after using Puppet rather than normal Stayman.

 

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

This would appear to be highly dependant on which version of Puppet you are playing. It is not universal for 3♦ to prmoise a 4 card major here.

 

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

Forbids is too strong a word. It is simply a bad idea most of the time whichever version of Stayman you are using.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman

Not a big loss after a 2NT opening for sure! See comments from the 1NT section as to why this is untrue.

 

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

I am still not sure why Puppet follow-ups are harder to remember than Smolen and co.

 

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

Or vice versa. The only time I have forgotten this I thought it was Puppet when our agreement was normal.

 

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

Also untrue. There are many auctions where Puppet reveals less to the opponents than regular Stayman.

 

5. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

Yep, there are more artificial calls in a typical Puppet auction.

 

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

This depends on your style for transfer bids. Many play a transfer as game-forcing after a 2NT opening and now you can assign a specific super-accept to the 5-2 hand type. 2NT - 3♥ - 3NT = 2533 makes for a very good hand description.

 

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit). Niemeijer can fix this problem but you run the risk of forgetting what the bids mean (2NT-3NT = Niemeijer, 5♠+4♥). To play in 3NT you must first bid 3♣. Others use 3♠ to play in 3NT but this also comes at a cost. 3♠ either MSS or a transfer to ♣ is lost. Others play 3♠ = 5♠+4♥ but again at a cost. The strong hand is exposed on the table when in ♠.

This is absolutely rubbish. There are several Puppet schemes around that cope with 5♠4♥ hands. I specifically mentioned how easy this was in a previous post. For the record I play the version where a 3♦ response shows 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts. Now a 4♦ rebid by Responder can handle the 5♠4♥ hand. If Opener rebids 3NT it shows <3 spades and <4 hearts so the 5♠4♥ hand knows there is no fit and can pass.

 

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

One point of that approach would be that a 5-4 fit might lead to a slam but that is a side point. If your 2NT opening is freer as to shape then any time you simply bid 3NT then less is known about Opener's hand. Similarly, compare the auctions 2NT - 3♣(Stayman); 3♥ - 3NT with 2NT - 3♣(Puppet); 3♦ - 3♥; 3NT. In the former we know Opener has 4 hearts and <4 spades and that Responder has 4 spades and no slam interest. In the latter we know that Opener does not have 4 spades or 5 hearts and that Responder does not have slam interest opposite that (but may have had opposite 4 spades). More bids does not necessarily mean more information is given to the defence abotu Declarer's hand.

[Zelandakh]

...continued...

 

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

All the time. For me it is standard to treat any 5332 hand as balanced. This obviously has beneficial effects elsewhere.

 

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

All the time. For me it is standard to treat 44(32) as balanced. But why is normal Stayman more useful here?

 

 

11. The loss of Smolen

...which can be covered in other ways.

 

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

Well since you ask... 3♥ asks Opener if they hold 4 spades or not and then a following 4m is natural. A 4M rebid over 3♦ shows a hand with 5-4 in the minors. 5-5 hands are handled elsewhere with a 3♠ response to 2NT.

 

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

It is very important on hands where we can make 4M but not 3NT. Playing Puppet allows us to make more accurate judgements on whether 3NT or 4M will be better.

 

Chris Ryall’s website on the plusses and minuses of playing Puppet Stayman should be read by all. Click here

Chris Ryall's site contains a lot of very good information on a variety of topics.

 

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

 

Topic closed.

Glad you think you have all the answers here. Nonetheless I would suggest that before you close the door in your mind that you try out some of the options to see how they affect the overall system. One of the biggest advantages of Puppet over 1NT is that it allows you to make your 1M openings unbalanced if desired, or at the very least avoids certain rebid problems inherent in system design. This alone is a big win. You only need to come out something close to even on the Stayman hands to be ahead overall. It is wrong to look at Puppet in isolation while ignoring the bigger picture.

[kenrexford]

So let's try and analyse what we win and what we lose playing Puppet Stayman.

 

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:

Advantages:

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

2. Play in a 5-3 major fit instead of 3NT

3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

 

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman Not necessarily. Playing Puppet, you might be able to bid 3♣ with something like 2-3-5-3, for instance.

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

5. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit. This assumes that you are playing regular Puppet and not the Muppet version that solves this problem.

7. You cannot show a 5♠+4♥ holding effectively (with 4♠+5♥ it is easy to transfer into the ♥ suit and then bid the ♠ suit). Niemeijer can fix this problem but you run the risk of forgetting what the bids mean (2NT-3NT = Niemeijer, 5♠+4♥). To play in 3NT you must first bid 3♣. Others use 3♠ to play in 3NT but this also comes at a cost. 3♠ either MSS or a transfer to ♣ is lost. Others play 3♠ = 5♠+4♥ but again at a cost. The strong hand is exposed on the table when in ♠. Again, you are missing a simple solution. With basic Muppet, you bid 3♣ with 5♠/4♥. Partner bids 3NT with 5♥, 3♥ then with no 4-card major; this allows Responder to bid 3♠ after 3♥ as 5♠/4♥. Thus, you do not forfeit 2NT-3NT as natural or 2NT-3♠ as minor(s).

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often. (If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

9. How often do you and your partner open 2NT with a 5-card major? If the answer is only if the 5-card major is so good that no 3-card support will help it or only if the 5-card major is so bad that you need 3 honors to make it worthwhile to play as a trump suit, then you don't need puppet Stayman at all.

10. How often do you open 2NT when you are precisely 4-4 in the majors? If the answer is as often as possible, then the more common variation of Stayman is far more useful.

11. The loss of Smolen

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

 

Chris Ryall's website on the plusses and minuses of playing Puppet Stayman should be read by all. Click here

 

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

 

Topic closed.

 

Thank you.

 

You seem to be suffering from a lack of knowledge of variations to Puppet Stayman that solve many of your problems with regular Puppet Stayman. You are right about PS, but that explains MS or MMS, not just S.

[bluecalm]

1. You can include 5-card majors within your 2NT range

 

If I play strong 2NT I also include 5M-3-3-2 there I just don't bother to find 5-3 fit.

 

3. It is easier to bid a slam in the majors

 

Why would it be ?

 

4. Over the sequence over 2N-3♣-3♦-4♣ use RKC with double agreement

 

How is that a bonus ?

With regular stayman you could play that 3NT is both majors and then you could RKC, or you could play 4C is both majors and 3NT is 5spades or w/e if you are really into finding those 5-3 fits.

 

5. Forbids opening 2NT with 5-4 in the majors

 

How is that a bonus ? And why would puppet forbid that while regular stayman wouldn't ?

 

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

 

Really ? I mean puppet stayman isn't that complicated I dont like it, but Brain drain ? Forgetting ? Seriously ?

 

6. Responder with 5♠+3♥, the partnership may have a 5-3 ♠ or ♥ fit. If you play Puppet the 5-3 ♠ fit is lost. If you transfer to ♠ then the 5-3 ♥ fit is lost. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. The odds say that it is better to transfer into the ♠ suit.

 

How is that disadvantage of puppet ? You re not forced to use it..

 

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

 

You don't bid puppet with both minors ? and with 4M-5m you try to find major fit and then if you are not successful you bid minor suit ?

 

This analysis is very bad, I mean, how about trying to find real wins/loses instead of fabricating non-reasons for either + and - side ?

[mgoetze]

I have seen and read enough on Puppet Stayman.

 

Topic closed.

 

I extend my previous offer once again:

 

Anyone care to perform the following sim:

 

32519 starts a thread on system

A knowledgable poster writes an answer

 

Identify the frequency with which

 

1. 32519 listens to any advice which does not agree with his foregone conclusions

2. Anyone learns anything

[kenrexford]

I extend my previous offer once again:

 

 

 

I am not usually one to agree that easily, but this sure was funny as to this discussion. The entire listing of rationales was OK, some good and some questionable. Some of the rebuttal analyses have been dubious at some points.

 

 

But, when you type in "Topic Closed," you are surely asking for it. LOL

[Vampyr]

Disadvantages:

1. You lose Garbage Stayman

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

4. Opponents can double artificial bids during the bidding for lead direction or even sacrifice

5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

 

This is an inaccurate mish-mash. 1, 2(?) and 3 apply only to 2♣ Puppet Stayman, and 5 only to 3♣ Puppet Stayman. So you can never suffer all of these disadvantages at once.

[Statto]

Over a 1NT Opening Bid

Disadvantages:

3. The auction is now forced to 2NT, so you need at least invitational values (8-9 HCP)

5. When playing 1NT-3♣ as Puppet Stayman, you lose an alternate meaning for the 3♣ bid

These are mutually exclusive.

 

Over a 2NT Opening Bid:

Disadvantages:

2. Brain drain in the follow up bidding

3. Forgetting that you are playing Puppet Stayman and not Standard Stayman

I don't consider these valid disadvantages if you know what you're doing.

 

4. More information disclosed to the opponents

8. The purpose of Puppet Stayman is to find 5-3 major fits when opener has opened 2NT with a 5-card major. Thus, responder will use puppet Stayman more often than he would use regular Stayman, since responder will use it on some hands with just a 3-card major as well as on hands with a 4-card major. This means that information about opener's hand will be revealed to the opponents more often.

Don't these amount to the same thing?

 

(If responder never uses puppet Stayman without a 4-card major, then I don't see the point of playing Puppet).

4-3 in the majors?

 

12. How do you show minor suit hands after: 2NT-3♣-3♦-?

By bidding your minor?

 

13. The 5-3 major fit is not that important at IMPS. The major suit fit most often produces 10 tricks versus 9 in NT. 1 IMP is lost. 4M plus 3NT both making 10 tricks is a push. 3NT making versus 4M down 1 is a huge gain.

What about when 4M makes and 3NT goes off due to lack of adequate stops?

 

Edit: did not see next page of responses, sorry if duplicated what others have said.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Statto