Puppet Stayman

[32519]

For every gadget that you include in your system agreements, there is a price to pay somewhere else. Puppet Stayman is no different.

 

Convince me why YOU use it.

[Codo]

I doubt that I can convince you but:

Without PS, I have two possibilities:

 

1. I am not able to open a 5332 hand with the right NT range in NT. This is particular ugly, if I hold 22+ HCPS and will fear that my 1 ♠ bid may be passed out. Another solution would be to open such a hand with your equivalent of an ACOL two. This is possible, but will burden these handtypes into your ACOL two. In the system I play, all these bids are bundled together with all even stronger hands in my 2 ♣ opening. So, even now, there are too many hand types for one opening, I am happy about any hand type, I can exclude.

 

2. You may open 2 NT with the 5332 hand without the possibility to ask for a five card major. This is what GIB is doing. This is entirely possible, but sometimes you pay for just being in the wrong game/slam.

 

 

You may argue that this price is low. But what exactly do I miss, if I play PS compared to normal stayman? To me, there are so low, that they do not count a lot in real life.

[32519]

I doubt that I can convince you but:

Without PS, I have two possibilities:

 

1. I am not able to open a 5332 hand with the right NT range in NT. This is particular ugly, if I hold 22+ HCPS and will fear that my 1 ♠ bid may be passed out. Another solution would be to open such a hand with your equivalent of an ACOL two. This is possible, but will burden these handtypes into your ACOL two. In the system I play, all these bids are bundled together with all even stronger hands in my 2 ♣ opening. So, even now, there are too many hand types for one opening, I am happy about any hand type, I can exclude.

 

2. You may open 2 NT with the 5332 hand without the possibility to ask for a five card major. This is what GIB is doing. This is entirely possible, but sometimes you pay for just being in the wrong game/slam.

 

 

You may argue that this price is low. But what exactly do I miss, if I play PS compared to normal stayman? To me, there are so low, that they do not count a lot in real life.

 

How do you treat your 5332 hand in the 1NT range (15-17 HCP)?

[Codo]

The modern approach is to use 1 NT for these hands without using puppet stayman.

 

I do not play this NT range with any standard partner, but if I would, I would look at my hand and bid 1 NT if it feals right and 1 M if the hand looks suit orientated.

 

With one of my partners I play a weak NT with puppet stayman. Works surprisingly good. But this is as far from mainstream as possible.

[G_R__E_G]

Over a 1NT opener you can have the best of both worlds. It's quite common these days to play 2♣ as Stayman and 3♣ as Puppet. Whatever you were using the 3♣ response for before probably hasn't come up in three years but hands where Puppet is useful come up on a somewhat frequent basis. Shapes like 33(1)(6) or 33(2)(5) where your singleton or doubleton are weak and you've got 10 or 12 points would probably play better in the major if the NT opener happens to have a 5 carder. Even on hands where you're (4)(3) in the majors I find it useful to check when you've got a weak doubleton in a minor.

[Zelandakh]

I play Puppet because I think it is more efficient and because it allows me to play 1♦ and 1M openings as unbalanced. There is (just) enough space to manage almost all of the common hand types. The main exception (garbage Stayman) is made up for by usually being able to get out in 2♦ and by having a new (albeit less common) version of garbage with slightly different shapes. For what it is worth my preferred structure is listed in this thread. Also in this thread is some discussion about the plusses and minuses. As you can read Free disagrees pretty much fundamentally with using 2♣ as Puppet and there is no consensus on this matter at all as far as I can tell.

[32519]

Over a 1NT opener you can have the best of both worlds. It's quite common these days to play 2♣ as Stayman and 3♣ as Puppet. Whatever you were using the 3♣ response for before probably hasn't come up in three years but hands where Puppet is useful come up on a somewhat frequent basis. Shapes like 33(1)(6) or 33(2)(5) where your singleton or doubleton are weak and you've got 10 or 12 points would probably play better in the major if the NT opener happens to have a 5 carder. Even on hands where you're (4)(3) in the majors I find it useful to check when you've got a weak doubleton in a minor.

 

Is this the regular treatment when bidding Puppet Stayman over 1NT?

1. With 8-9 HCP, bid 2♣ as standard Stayman?

2. With 10-12 HCP and 3-3 or 4-3 in the majors, Puppet Stayman?

 

It's starting to make more sense now. The first sequence is game invitational. The second sequence is obviously game forcing.

[jjbrr]

Is this the regular treatment when bidding Puppet Stayman over 1NT?

1. With 8-9 HCP, bid 2♣ as standard Stayman?

2. With 10-12 HCP and 3-3 or 4-3 in the majors, Puppet Stayman?

 

It's starting to make more sense now. The first sequence is game invitational. The second sequence is obviously game forcing.

 

Yes your conclusions are correct.

 

I don't play puppet over 2NT for a lot of reasons, but do play 3C/1NT as puppet.

 

In addition to the 33 and 43 major hands, you should include 42 major hands as well.

 

Also 1NT 3C 3NT shouldn't exist.

[32519]

If you allow 5-card majors in your 1NT 15-17 HCP range, what does one do in this bidding sequence?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s92haqt64daqtckq5&n=sk8654hj9d76cjt83&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2h(Transfer%20to%20Spades)p]266|200[/hv]

 

You have a good 5-card ♥ suit.

Partner is asking you to transfer into your worst suit. Do you pass 2♥ or do you complete the transfer?

[wyman]

I don't like to play partials when we might have a game on, so I obviously complete.

[mgoetze]

I hope you are all feeling good about yourselves helping a famous bridge author get to the bottom of such difficult questions as "should I pass a forcing bid?"

[G_R__E_G]

In bridge there are two things you always accept from partner; a transfer and an offer of a breath mint.

[Quartic]

If you allow 5-card majors in your 1NT 15-17 HCP range, what does one do in this bidding sequence?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s92haqt64daqtckq5&n=sk8654hj9d76cjt83&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2h(Transfer%20to%20Spades)p]266|200[/hv]

 

You have a good 5-card ♥ suit.

Partner is asking you to transfer into your worst suit. Do you pass 2♥ or do you complete the transfer?

 

Complete the transfer of course - partner doesn't have to be weak with 5 spades - we could miss 4♠ or 3NT if I pass. (And yes, I realise the question was probably rhetorical.)

[G_R__E_G]

I hope you are all feeling good about yourselves helping a famous bridge author get to the bottom of such difficult questions as "should I pass a forcing bid?"

 

 

I actually lol'd on that one. Is it really the same person?

 

PS I've checked my calendar, it is not April 1st.

[aguahombre]

I thought Andrew was joking, and people were going to bite/ answer seriously. I was half right; Michael cleared up the first part for us.

[barmar]

Don't forget the old rule of thumb: it's usually better to play in the long suit of the weaker hand.

[aguahombre]

I actually lol'd on that one. Is it really the same person?

 

PS I've checked my calendar, it is not April 1st.

I don't think it was published on April 1st, either.

[kenrexford]

IMO, the main reason why people play Muppet (or some version of Muppet) over a 2NT opening is that they only know three main ideas -- Regular Stayman, Puppet Stayman, or Muppet Stayman. When considering these three, Muppet seems best.

 

What I mean is that this is a sequence (2NT-P-3♣) where there are not a large number of alternatives that are well known out there to weigh against each other. So, when a convention is weighed against what you give up, but no one has a club what is actually being forfeit, then your weighting is fairly easy to work out.

 

Now, this is not to say that there are not alternatives that are not so well known that might be interesting alternatives to Muppet.

[Vampyr]

If you allow 5-card majors in your 1NT 15-17 HCP range, what does one do in this bidding sequence?

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s92haqt64daqtckq5&n=sk8654hj9d76cjt83&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1np2h(Transfer%20to%20Spades)p]266|200[/hv]

 

You have a good 5-card ♥ suit.

Partner is asking you to transfer into your worst suit. Do you pass 2♥ or do you complete the transfer?

 

This hand is much too good for a 15-17 1NT, but even if it were a bit weaker the hearts are, in many people's opinion, too strong as well.

[aguahombre]

This hand is much too good for a 15-17 1NT, but even if it were a bit weaker the hearts are, in many people's opinion, too strong as well.

All very true. For some 5cM notrumpers, they don't do it with 17, whether upgraded to more or not.

 

Also, all very irrelevant to this thread; and I apologize for continuing the hijack....sort of :rolleyes:

[32519]

I hope you are all feeling good about yourselves helping a famous bridge author get to the bottom of such difficult questions as "should I pass a forcing bid?"

 

For those who don’t know what mgoetze is referring to, you will need the read the thread Defence to a 1NT Opening Bid (post 83 on page 5 of this thread and post 97 also on page 5).

 

I thought Andrew was joking, and people were going to bite/ answer seriously. I was half right; Michael cleared up the first part for us.

 

Aguahombre is partially correct. I often post on topics I already have SOME of the answers. Posts in other threads sometimes flick the switch for possible alternative ways for using “mainstream” bids differently. Case in point here is the current Multi and Defence to a 1NT Opening Bid. The thread on Jacoby 2NT hopefully got those interested to reconsider whether their current use of Jacoby 2NT is optimal.

 

This thread on Puppet Stayman is no different. Posts in other threads got me thinking about the effectiveness of the current conventional agreements. But before I can decide whether any “tweak” will work better or not, I try to get some feedback on things I may not have thought of previously.

 

So thanks to those who chose to answer honestly and sensibly. The day we meet, I am sure that mgoetze and I will become good friends. Until then, I would like to request mgoetze to do a review of my book and do a write up in the Bridge Material Review Forum. When you do, please bear in mind what I said in the “Defence to a 1NT Opening Bid” thread. The book won’t become popular as a “stand alone” convention. Build it into a Multi purpose bid as suggested and suddenly it becomes very attractive indeed.

 

What is Muppet Stayman? How does it differ from Stayman and Puppet Stayman?

 

Thanks again all.

[bluecalm]

Puppet stayman eats up precious and, especially after 2NT opening, deficient resource which is bidding space. If you use it with run of the mill 3-2 in majors hand you will be worse of than people who bid direct 3NT because first you usually don't have 5-3 fit anyway, second it may not play better than 3nt and third and most important you give them free information and chance to double 3C. 3-1-(5-4) hands are too rare to bother about them and again usually you don't have 5-3 major fit anyway but are leaking info as always.

Imo the convention sucks and is probably the worst convention used by elite partnerships.

[Free]

Are we talking about Puppet Stayman after 1NT openings or after 2NT openings? :unsure:

[bluecalm]

Haha, good point. I automatically assumed it's after 2N, because nobody plays it after 1N here... oh Americans...

[aguahombre]

Imo the convention sucks and is probably the worst convention used by elite partnerships.

I assume you mean after 2NT; and also assume you mean if they use continuations other that those which Mikeh recommended in a previous thread which I can't find at the moment.

 

I am an avid student of what "elite" partnerships do to tweak their structure, but not a critic of them, since they have given a lot of thought into the plusses, minuses, and inferences involved.

 

Aside from that, those critical of Americans in general are mostly those who haven't gotten over the results in 1776 or 1812. Most Americans, gauche as we are, have gotten past it.