Protecting over preempt again?

[jules101]

[hv=pc=n&n=s92hakqt9d94ckqj9&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=3spp]133|200[/hv]

 

 

Too much to pass, if you double you fear partner will bid ♦, so what are you going to do this time?

[gwnn]

The same as last time :)

[Codo]

I see three possibilities:

1. I can pass. This is quite a position, but at least you won't pay -800 if you are wrong or -420 after they "try to protect".

2. I can double, hoping for a pass, 3 NT or 4 hearts. After 4 ♦ from partner I can convert to 4 ♥, which does NOT show a strong one suiter, but a flexible hand, most often without a real diamond fit.

3. I can bid 4 ♥ our most likely game.

 

I would X.

[ArtK78]

4♥. I am surprised that this is not unanimous.

[Zelandakh]

I clicked the wrong upvote - I meant to agree with double, followed by 4♥ if partner should bid 4♦.

[ArtK78]

I clicked the wrong upvote - I meant to agree with double, followed by 4♥ if partner should bid 4♦.

Wow. Double followed by 4♥? Do you intend to show game in hand type values, like:

 

x

AKQJTxx

KQJ

Kx

[wyman]

Wow. Double followed by 4♥? Do you intend to show game in hand type values, like:

 

x

AKQJTxx

KQJ

Kx

 

I don't think X & bid when we're at the 4 level shows extra strength like it does at the 1 level. We've been preempted. Double shows a flexible hand. Double and 4H over 4D says "nope, not diamonds."

[r_prah]

4♥. I am surprised that this is not unanimous.

 

I agree.

[Zelandakh]

Wow. Double followed by 4♥? Do you intend to show game in hand type values, like:

 

x

AKQJTxx

KQJ

Kx

This is a GOSH, it should be bid as such. Double followed by bidding 4♥ over 4♦ does not show a GOSH type after a preempt.

[ArtK78]

This is a GOSH, it should be bid as such. Double followed by bidding 4♥ over 4♦ does not show a GOSH type after a preempt.

Would you mind explaining what a GOSH is? And if double followed by 4♥ doesn't show this type of hand, would you please explain how you would show this type of hand?

[WellSpyder]

This is a GOSH, it should be bid as such.

How does one do that, then?

EDIT: Cross-posted - I see Art has asked the same question. (And, like him, I have guessed what you mean by GOSH....)

[aguahombre]

Sorry, Zel and Wyman; I go with Art on this one. We don't really have room to be "flexible" with the double followed by 4H at this level of the auction, and really need to be able to show Art's example powerhouse.

 

I vote for the practical 4H balance, and hope it doesn't turn sour. The doubling route gets us to the same place (unless pard leaves it in, not likely), so I don't see the gain

[wyman]

pard can also bid 3N, which may work out well.

[aguahombre]

pard can also bid 3N, which may work out well.

Yes, that could be a good gain. I am still concerned about if he doesn't do that, though. Should I pass 4C? Will partner stop bidding sometime this century if I convert 4D to 4H?

[JLOGIC]

Sorry, Zel and Wyman; I go with Art on this one. We don't really have room to be "flexible" with the double followed by 4H at this level of the auction, and really need to be able to show Art's example powerhouse.

 

I vote for the practical 4H balance, and hope it doesn't turn sour. The doubling route gets us to the same place (unless pard leaves it in, not likely), so I don't see the gain

 

This is the opposite of correct. With room to cater to only a flexible hand, or a powerhouse 1 suited hand type, we are supposed to cater to the flexible hand type. It is far more common to occur (you just need a hand good enough to bid 4H with basically, as opposed to some massive super powerhouse).

 

When I learned bridge I was taught a phrase, "strain over level" meaning getting to the right suit is prioritized over getting to the right level when you know what suit you want to play.

 

When you know you're going to play hearts over a preempt, your only options are to bid some number of hearts. You bid 4H with a very wide range, expecting to miss a slam sometimes, and if you are strong enough to warrant more than that you bid 5H (note, this does not show a hand that needs a spade control, it is just a hand that is too good to bid 5H, a hand that is solid without a spade control is very rare indeed...you can play special agreements with 4N or 4S though if you want to try to cater to that hand type). You are going to have to sacrifice something, either GOSH (good one suited hand) or flexible hand types, and being able to find the right fit without getting to silly 5-1 fits by overcalling 4H on hands like x KQxxx AKxx AQx is much more important than showing a massive 4H bid. What are you guys going to do with x KQxxx AKxx AQx after 3S p p X p 4C p? If you cannot bid 4H showing this hand type because it shows a 10 trick 1 suiter in hearts, I don't know what to tell you, you are in a hopeless situation where you probably have to start by overcalling 4H and you will be in the same situation on many many hands before you find a GOSH hand, and even when you find that hand, you will usually not gain anything vs just overcalling (you still have to bid a slam you otherwise wouldn't have).

[wyman]

Yes, that could be a good gain. I am still concerned about if he doesn't do that, though. Should I pass 4C? Will partner stop bidding sometime this century if I convert 4D to 4H?

 

He will if you are on the same page about doubling with a 2-suiter.

 

I would pass 4C and hope for the best. Yes, there's a chance this is wrong.

[JLOGIC]

AND FWIW with AKQT9 of hearts I think it is obv to just overcall 4H.

[aguahombre]

"Opposite of correct" is so much more civilized :D

[Zelandakh]

Would you mind explaining what a GOSH is? And if double followed by 4♥ doesn't show this type of hand, would you please explain how you would show this type of hand?

Justin explained much better than I could. GOSH = Good One-Suited Hand and with this hand type you jump in hearts immediately. The difference between bidding over a preempt and over a constructive opening is that after the latter these jumps are needed for weaker hands whereas we do not preempt over a preempt and therefore these bids can be reserved for good hands. By taking the GOSH hands out of double we gain the ability to use double and bid as conversion which provides a good way of handling many common but otherwise difficult to handle hands.

 

Whether the hand in the OP should be treated as a one-suited hand is another matter entirely. My vote is still for no with KQJ9 on the side but both approaches have their advantages and Justin being in the 4♥ camp is food for thought. I am interested in what the other senior posters have to say about this decision now.

[jules101]

So after [3♠] and 2 passes you bid 4♥ with

 

a)

 

xx

AKQT9

KQJ9

xx

 

b)

 

void

AJTxxx

KJ

KT8xx

 

and also with the GOSH?

 

c)

 

x

AKQJTxx

KQJ

Kx

 

Latter seems much better hand, but maybe your pard will have fewer useful cards if you have this much?

[Codo]

Hey, premepts work. :)

You do have quite limited space to show different hand types, so you need to bid 4 ♥ with much more different hands.

 

Whether or not your three examples are still a 4 ♥ bid is debatable, I would double with the first one and maybe bid 5 ♥ with the third, but basically, yes, 4 ♥ can be bid with all three handtypes.

[mikeh]

Whether the hand in the OP should be treated as a one-suited hand is another matter entirely. My vote is still for no with KQJ9 on the side but both approaches have their advantages and Justin being in the 4♥ camp is food for thought. I am interested in what the other senior posters have to say about this decision now.

 

 

I'm much, much more 'senior' than Justin, so I'll bite on this one :P

 

I learned a different phrase than Justin's: game before slam: it means much the same thing tho.....in sequences where logic suggests that you need to choose between two messages....one is probing for slam and the other is exploring which game is best, opt for the interpretation that one is looking to find the best game, and don't worry about slam. Games are far more common than slams, and with real slam interest, you will sometimes be able to make another move over the game. In the meantime, bidding space is often cramped in preempted or competitive auctions, so you often don't have the luxury of being able to look for slam with one sequence and choose games via another.

 

 

When I saw the hand, I thought, as did Art, that this was a wtp 4♥.

 

We miss defending 3♠ x'd, but our spade length, such as it is, suggests partner won't have the trumps to defend. We miss 3N, but, again, our spade length suggests that he won't be bidding 3N, and our lack of a second Ace means that he might not have 9 tricks in time even if he can bid it. In the meantime, I'm always having to bid 4♥ after any other non-jump bid by partner, and while I agree that that would show a flexible hand, what am I gaining? Do I want partner to feel that he can bid 5minor over 4♥? No.

 

Since double then 4♥ shows a different hand than an immediate 4♥ (tho the boundary is somewhat vague, and different players will disagree on exactly where the line is on any given hand), and since I have no real desire to suggest another denomination, I choose 4♥...aware that on a bad day, this will not work out.