How do you find 6C ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

( 6NT doesn't make )

 

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EDIT: It was IMP scoring

Edited March 14, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[mike777]

1nt=2nt(forces 3c, very often long weak clubs)

3c=3s(1=4=4=4 slam try)

4c=4d rkc in cl;ubs etc.

 

 

if given OP then 6nt.

[dake50]

What a fine distinction. If S:QJ7 were S:K74 doesn't 6NT make?

Now try to find that distinction in the auction.

[gszes]

1n 15-17

2c stayman

2d no 4 card

3d dia and forcing

3n shows stops in all suits but dia might have dia as well

4c clubs and slamming

4h cue bid agreeing to clubs else 4d first

4s cue

5d cue extra values else 4n to show min

5h cue makes a 5s cue available for p in case 6n better than 6c

5n have another useful card denies spade control cant go beyond 6c

6c 6n too dangerous w/o spade K settle

[inquiry]

A simple auction would be...

 

1NT - 4NT

5C - 6C

PASS

 

where 4nt is quantitative

5c is a four clubs (bid 6C if accepting slam try with 5 clubs)

6c we found 4-4 fit.

 

NOT saying I would bid it that way, but it is a simple auction. You play 4nt if partner is minimum, and have a chance to find 6 or any suit but spades (or 6nt) if partner has maximum.

[benlessard]

These 4M+5m or 4441 hands are exactly why i think 4 card transfers (when GF) are superior to standard. 1Nt-2D is premium space, using this space only for hands where you have 5 H is inefficient Imo.

 

1444 often start with 1Nt-2C-2S ... no matter how good you are youre going to need some luck here.

 

4135 often goes 1Nt-2C-2H.. now its tough to ask/show 4S and show 5 clubs at the same time. If you bid clubs partner will not know if you have 4H or 4S.

[awm]

Maybe:

 

1NT - 3♥!(1)

3NT(2) - 4NT(3)

5♣(4) - 6♣(5)

 

(1) Shortness in spades, roughly three-suited

(2) No four hearts, probably as good as anything opposite a min GF

(3) Quantitative

(4) Given the soft spade cards, a minor fit will be our best chance at slam

(5) Okay

 

It's easy to imagine a different auction if opener holds for example ♠Kxx, since he knows the shortage.

[aguahombre]

1nt=2nt(forces 3c, very often long weak clubs)

3c=3s(1=4=4=4 slam try)

4c=4d rkc in cl;ubs etc.

You must be as old as me. Didn't think anyone still had that club in their bag but us.

[mike777]

You must be as old as me. Didn't think anyone still had that club in their bag but us.

 

 

 

geez now I am told this is old style...........btw I am young....under edit..never mind

[gnasher]

If you have a way to show a 1444 shape, you should use it, obviously. Then opener bids clubs, responder cue-bids hearts (just in case opener has xxxx KJx AK KQxx or some other miracle), opener signs off, and responder bids slam.

 

Otherwise, if you have a way to show a balanced slam try, you should use that. Once a club fit is found, responder should drive 6♣.

 

If you don't have a way to show a balanced slam try and find fits below the 4NT level, I think you should reconsider your methods.

 

If S:QJ7 were S:K74 doesn't 6NT make?

Not necessarily, no. 6NT is likely to make, but you may have only four clubs, two diamonds, three hearts and two spades.

[Zelandakh]

Given your start:-

 

1NT = 15-17

... - 2♣ = Puppet

2♦ = no 5 card major

... - 2♠ = 4 hearts, not 4 spades, INV+

3♣ = max, 4+ clubs, not 4 hearts, GF

... - 3♠ = spade shortage

3NT = to play

... - 4♣ = slam try

5♣ = accept, 2 without ♣Q

... - 5♦ = K ask

5♥ = ♥K

... - 6♣

 

 

From a 1♣ start:-

 

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any

... - 2♦ = 4-5 hearts, <4 spades, bal or 3-suited, GF

2NT = 15-17 bal

... - 3♠ = 1444, SI

4♣ = nat

... - 4♦ = RKCB

4NT = 2 without ♣Q

... - 5♦ = K ask

5♥ = ♥K

... - 6♣

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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EDIT: It was IMP scoring

When Opener denies a 4 card Major , Responder knows they have a 4-4 minor fit ( perhaps a 5-4 ) with his 1 4 4 4 shape. Note: Responder will often have 4-4 in the minors when he next makes the 4NT Quant bid. Why ? Because if Responder had a 5+ card minor and slammish, he would have bid 3m over 2D ( part of the Baze convention over Stayman ) . However, Responder could also be 4 4 ( 3 2 ) for his Quant bid.

 

After "sleeping on this hand ", I got to thinking that, after a 2D reply to Stayman, when Responder next makes a 4NT Quant try, that Opener should bid his 4 card minor ( or "both" ) AND show if he is min or max at the same time:

 

pass = w/minimum ( no matter what minor holding )

5C = max w/ 4 ♣ >>> Responder bids 6C or 6NT

5D = max w/ 4 ♦ >>> Responder bids 6D or 6NT

5NT = max w/ BOTH 4 card minors >>> Responder picks: 6C/6D or 6NT

6C = max w/ 5 ♣ for pass or correct to 6NT

6D = max w/ 5 ♦ for pass or correct to 6NT

[gnasher]

After "sleeping on this hand ", I got to thinking that, after a 2D reply to Stayman, when Responder next makes a 4NT Quant try, that Opener should bid his 4 card minor ( or "both" ) AND show if he is min or max at the same time:

 

pass = w/minimum ( no matter what minor holding )

5C = max w/ 4 ♣ >>> Responder bids 6C or 6NT

5D = max w/ 4 ♦ >>> Responder bids 6D or 6NT

5NT = max w/ BOTH 4 card minors >>> Responder picks: 6C/6D or 6NT

6C = max w/ 5 ♣ for pass or correct to 6NT

6D = max w/ 5 ♦ for pass or correct to 6NT

Suppose that opener had Jxx Kxx AQx AJ10x. You would play in 4NT with 6♣ almost cold. About 1/3 of the time you would go down in 4NT. The five level really isn't the right place to discuss trump suits.

[Zelandakh]

pass = w/minimum ( no matter what minor holding )

5C = max w/ 4 ♣ >>> Responder bids 6C or 6NT

5D = max w/ 4 ♦ >>> Responder bids 6D or 6NT

5NT = max w/ BOTH 4 card minors >>> Responder picks: 6C/6D or 6NT

6C = max w/ 5 ♣ for pass or correct to 6NT

6D = max w/ 5 ♦ for pass or correct to 6NT

You do not need 5NT for both minors since with diamonds Responder can bid 5♦ over 5♣. I think it would be better to use 5NT as either 2245, (23)53 or as a non-descript 33(34) with a weak 4 card suit, perhaps somewhat depending on opening style. Perhaps better still would be to include the 5M calls and use the 5m calls more efficiently. If we use 5m to look for 4-4 fits, 5M to look for 5-3 fits, and then higher bids for others then we can conceivably handle even offshape 1NT openings:-

 

P = min

5♣ = 4-5 clubs

... - 5♦ = 4 diamonds

... - ... - 5♥ = 5 clubs, 2-3 diamonds

... - 5♥ = 3 clubs, 2-3 diamonds

... - ... - 5♠ = 5 diamonds

... - 5♠ = 5 diamonds, 2-3 clubs

5♦ = 4-5 diamonds, not 4 clubs

... - 5♥ = 5 clubs, 2-3 diamonds

... - ... - 5♠ = 5 diamonds

5♥ = 5 clubs, 4 diamonds

5♠ = 5 diamonds, 4 clubs

5NT = 6 diamonds, 3 clubs

6♣ = 6 clubs

6♦ = 6 diamonds, 2 clubs

 

as one example of this. I do think that any good structure using normal Stayman should have space for bids to cover 4441 hands though.

 

Edit: Oh yes, and I should add that if you play a Baron-style 2♠ call over 2♦ that you can handle this even below 3NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Suppose that opener had Jxx Kxx AQx AJ10x. You would play in 4NT with 6♣ almost cold. About 1/3 of the time you would go down in 4NT. The five level really isn't the right place to discuss trump suits.

True.

 

You mentioned in your previous reply ( post 10 ):

Otherwise, if you have a way to show a balanced slam try, you should use that.

What is another way to show a balanced slam try after 2D? ( below 4NT ) .

[Zelandakh]

What is another way to show a balanced slam try after 2D? ( below 4NT ) .

 

See my edit Don - Baron 2♠ is a fairly popular convention in Britain, at least at levels below Andy's.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

See my edit Don - Baron 2♠ is a fairly popular convention in Britain, at least at levels below Andy's.

Right now:

1NT - 2C

2D - 2S = invitational: 8-9, 5s4h or 5s5h

[Zelandakh]

Right now:

1NT - 2C

2D - 2S = invitational: 8-9, 5s4h or 5s5h

With 2♣ Puppet, I play 1NT - 2NT as 5♠4♥ and invitational and 1NT - 2♥; 2♠ - 3♥ as 5-5 or better and invitational. That frees the given sequence to show an INV or better hand with 4 hearts and less than 4 spades which essentially acts like a form of Baron. If playing normal Stayman you can similarly free this sequence for many minor-oriented slam hands while including a range ask. When I played normal Stayman I used 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT to cover the 5♠4♥ invitational hand.

[gnasher]

True.

 

You mentioned in your previous reply ( post 10 ):

 

What is another way to show a balanced slam try after 2D? ( below 4NT ) .

I didn't say that it had to be after Stayman. There are lots of ways of showing a balanced slam try after a 1NT opening. In one partnership I play 1NT-2♦;2♥-2♠ as a balanced slam try. In another I play 2♠ as a range-ask that includes balanced invitations, signoffs in clubs, balanced slam tries, and some minor two-suiters.

 

If you want a methods that you can bolt onto Stayman without changing much elsewhere, there's always Sharples. Or Stayman followed by 3♠, which isn't needed as Smolen if you play 1NT-2♦;2♥-2♠ as natural and a one-round force. Or you could play Stayman followed by 3♣ as either clubs or a balanced slam try. Or you could look at how you're currently using 1NT-3x, and think about whether you're using the bids effectively.

 

How you fit this in depends on the rest of your system, but it's an important hand-type, and probably more important than some of the other hands that you're already able to show.

Edited March 14, 2012 by gnasher

[Free]

I have 3♣ available as a puppet, to show shortness. However I probably wouldn't bid it and just signoff in 3NT, or maybe bid 4NT after which we can find our ♣ fit.

[aguahombre]

I have 3♣ available as a puppet, to show shortness. However I probably wouldn't bid it and just signoff in 3NT, or maybe bid 4NT after which we can find our ♣ fit.

That's another old treatment, which I had forgotten.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Since 3C/3D shows the 5+minor, GF, slammish ... what would 4C or 4D mean ( directly over 2D ) ?

 

Should/could 4C/4D = Quant w/ 4 card ♣ or ♦ ( to go along with the undisclosed 4 card Major ) ??

 

And 4NT ( over 2D ) = Quant w/ NO 4 card minor .

[gnasher]

Since 3C/3D shows the 5+minor, GF, slammish ... what would 4C or 4D mean ( directly over 2D ) ?

 

Should/could 4C/4D = Quant w/ 4 card ♣ or ♦ ( to go along with the undisclosed 4 card Major ) ??

 

And 4NT ( over 2D ) = Quant w/ NO 4 card minor .

That, in essence, is Sharples. It's a bit clumsy, but much better than nothing.

 

You'd need to decide how to bid these hands after 1NT-2♣-2M. One option is to use 1NT-2♣;2M-3OM as the balanced slam try, so that you can keep four of a minor as a splinter.

[Cyberyeti]

I play a weak no trump meaning I don't need Smolen, so these hands (moving 3 points to the N hand so I'm top of my range) would be bid:

 

1N-2♣

2♦-3♥ (minor suit enquiry without 5m)

3N (max no 5m)-4♣ (4 card suit)

 

now any bid other than 4N showing 3343 agrees clubs

[JLOGIC]

Heres a suggestion:

 

1N 2C

2D 4S

 

Most people would have this undefined, so you don't even need to change your system to deal with this. Assuming 4D and 4H are transfers over 2D, that leaves 4S to how (14)44 slam try.