For true beginners

[Codo]

I would listen to the people who complain that the stuff in the B/I is often too difficult, too esoteric, too anything. After all, they are the the target group of this forum.

So I strongly disagree with Ben. There is no need to talk about squeezes, Gazilli, Kickback Precision etc. here. The people who want to learn these parts of the game can look somewhere else. There is enough room elsewhere to talk about it. And if you still have problems to count and to signal, this stuff is simply the wrong stuff to learn.

If you are a real rookie or beginner and 2 out of 3 threads a re far beyond your knowledge, you may get frustrated even reading it.

 

So, I would strongly suggest to lower the limits for the B/I thread to have a place where Bs can feal safe and warm.

 

And when experts answer, they should not answer in a way like: In standard bidding, you have to guess now, but with this little gem (supper muppet stayman) you had solved the problem in seconds, you just use your two step transfer, which partner will superaccept with a jump into his doubleton, so after using exclusion kickback, you can reach the superior 7 club on the 4-2 fit. Bridge is really easy.

[mgoetze]

The Split B&I thing is ridiculous. There are already three forums - Beginners and Intermediates, General Bridge Discussion and Advanced. If it's too big for B&I and not big enough for advanced, just post it in general.

 

I disagree strongly - I for one do not want to see the General Bridge Discussion forum swamped with "what would you do on this hand" posts, please stick to topics which are truly of general interest there.

[mgoetze]

True, I wasn't responding to wyman's OP, but rather to the evolving sub-topic of a new I/A forum. My point was that we have de facto non-beginner/non-expert fora, and they are called "Interesting Bridge Hands" and "SAYC and 2/1 Discussion." I think those are fine destinations for the mass middle without creating a new forum.

 

What about those who play ACOL, or SEF, or other natural systems?

[gwnn]

I disagree strongly - I for one do not want to see the General Bridge Discussion forum swamped with "what would you do on this hand" posts, please stick to topics which are truly of general interest there.

Could you clarify what 'truly of general interest' means? Perhaps also with some examples?

[mgoetze]

Could you clarify what 'truly of general interest' means? Perhaps also with some examples?

 

OK that was perhaps a bit too broad. What I meant is that I don't mind discussions along the lines of "do you think Lebensohl should apply in the following situations", but I don't want to see "yesterday I had the following hand, should I bid Lebensohl or should I bid 3♦ directly?"

[Flameous]

I like the way the forums are used now. (Maybe with the addition that Sayc/2/1 forum includes all natural systems because now acol finds itself quite out of place)

But if it makes any sense, I'd call current B/I rather as "Instructional". That means it would include as much all the simple questions total newcomers might have as well as these great instructional threads Inquiry has come up with.

 

I mean really, these forums aren't really flooded with content or anything. I take a short check every day which only gets longer if I find something interesting enough to post. Even when I'm very active, that probably means less than hour a week. If some newcomers only need go through B/I, it hardly takes any time at all to go through threads and skip ones they find too hard.

 

Also I don't think forums are the best way to get the hold of this game as a total newbie. There are good books and courses and such for that. If you try to learn the basics in a forum, it's like having one student and a dozen arguing teachers, it just doesn't work.

I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't post their novice questions here, but just keep note on what kind of learning environment this is.

 

And I like the OP's idea of notification when the required content is really for novices. If we get a flood of novice posters after this thread, it makes it much simpler for them :)

[mikeh]

When we compare the posts from the newbies to Ben's current thread on squeezes, I suggest that we should see that we have a real problem here.

 

Don't get me wrong: I have huge respect for Ben's efforts and his good....great....intentions, but there can be no real basis for arguing that a forum in which Ben can discuss and set out a quiz on such things as progressive squeezes, entry squeezes and the like belongs in the same part of the site as questions about what we mean when we say that two hands are 'mirrored'.

 

It is essential, imo, that this site have an area in which people can feel safe in asking the questions that seem 'silly' to those of us who have played the game for so long that we have forgotten how challenging it was for us to learn these things. I also suspect that some of us never really had to 'learn' these things because they grew up in a bridge-playing family.

 

I have no idea how difficult it is to set up a 'new to the game' forum, distinct from B/I. If it can be done relatively easily, I'd suggest we do so and that maybe we look back on that forum 6-12 months from now and if it is as unpopulated as some of the moribund ones we have currently, then eliminate it...but if it attracts more lurkers to post, and more true newbies to raise their heads above the parapet....we all gain, as does the game itself.

[Antrax]

I think focusing on inquiry's squeeze thread is doing him a disservice. His previous threads were excellent and I wish I'd seen some of what he posted about before I learned it the hard way. In other words, great beginner material.

Honestly, I don't think there's a problem with topics, just with the way they're presented. It's disheartening to read a forum full of abbreviations, references to posters' history and personal attacks. It makes posts incomprehensible, and doesn't invite one to dive in. I can relate to someone not wanting to post "what is X" for multiple Xs in the same thread - you'd feel like you're stalling the flow of conversation, like a foreigner demanding everyone use simple words.

[JLOGIC]

For the love of god B I/A E, that is the best idea ever.

 

I think just in terms of "what sounds better", people don't want to post in B/I esp if they think they are advanced and they're probably intermediate or between, it sounds like they're a n00b. If they could post in I/A then it would not hurt their ego, it would also merge the two that are the hardest to define, which would be fine because no one would have to define it.

 

The way it is now:

 

-For true beginners, it is intimidating, because B/I is still filled with stuff too advanced for them and they feel like they're idiots for not being able to post in the beginner forum.

-For intermediates, they want to post in A/E, because naturally they think they are advanced, and don't want to be lumped into the beginner forum, bad for the psyche

-For advanced, ok they post in a/e.

-For expert, well as we see, everyone posts in A/E, so it can be annoying when you want to post something for a higher level discussion and it gets watered down with dumb comments.

 

The system right now does not work for anyone except advanced players. Yes, if you changed it to B I/A and E, B and E would be low traffic, but they would still serve a purpose. I/A would just be like A/E, it would be the same exact people posting in I/A as in A/E anyways lol, so who cares, all that would happen is that it would be improved for the Bs and the Es.

 

On top of that, even though I/A would functionally be the exact same as A/E, I think we would see a LOT nicer of an attitude in it, if I was an E posting in I/A, I would treat it somewhat like I treat posting in B/I now, I am supposed to be nicer and less sarcastic/more helpful since it is not the forum I "belong" in and thus I am posting there to be helpful. It would certainly stop the hostility of people who start threads in A/E that do not belong there and getting flamed. It would really create a nicer atmosphere imo.

 

I think the current system could have worked if people actually posted in the right forum, but the reality is, no one wants to be in the lower of 2 levels. If almost everyone is in the middle of 2 levels, I think that would be fine for ego purposes. OK, I am not an expert, but I am also not a beginner, I am an ambiguous I or A.

[Free]

I have recommended several times splitting the forums into B, I/A and E.

My thoughts exactly, and Justin explained it very nicely why.

 

Same goes for the "SAYC and 2/1" forum btw, many have suggested to call it "natural" which also seems more appropriate.

[HighLow21]

When we compare the posts from the newbies to Ben's current thread on squeezes, I suggest that we should see that we have a real problem here.

<snip>

We Like Mike.

 

The gulf between what a true newbie understands and is capable of incorporating effectively, and some (a LOT) of what appears in the B&I forum (either because it is legitimate Intermediate material or because it is well-intentioned Experts shooting past their audience) is MASSIVE.

 

In fact I would argue that the real split should be the following, if there are to be only 2 groups: Novice/Beginner, and Intermediate+.

 

I also would argue that BBO's current ranking system definition, whereby roughly 90% of the BBO population truly falls into Intermediate, is in and of itself problematic, but that is a separate topic (which I why I started a separate thread addressing that topic and will not discuss it further here).

[HighLow21]

For the love of god B I/A E, that is the best idea ever.

 

...

Holy cow, are Justin and I now beginning to agree entirely on a regular basis?! HA!! B-) :D

 

Combining my post above with Justin's excellent post, I would vote for N/B and I+ if there are 2 forums, and N/B; I; A/E ... OR ... N/B; I/A; E if there are 3.

 

If I could vote for one specific scenario only, I think it would almost certainly be the 3-forum scenario precisely as Justin laid out above (N/B; I/A; E).

[Cthulhu D]

Taking comments on board, maybe a better split up of forums is:

 

1. General Discussion - Subforums: Youth, Offline, Reviews
   
2. Natural Systems - ACOL, 2/1, Sayc - Subforum: BBO Standard
   
3. Artificial Systems - Strong club and forcing pass start here!
   
4. Beginners - Bidding and play problems
   
5. Intermediate and Advanced - Bidding and play problems
   
6. Expert - Bidding and play problems
   

 

Subforums should be displayed like they are on forums.somethingawful.com or similar, a small tag within the large 'General discussion' bar, not a whole line to themselves.

 

If you really insist you can make interesting bridge hands a separate forum, but imho you're better off folding that content into the relevant 'level' forum. If it's a hand interesting because you found an elementary backwash triple squeeze without the count, put it in expert. If you do that, the BPO forum should be scraped, the forum should be called 'Solvers club' or similar and all discuss folded back in there.

 

This then has the benefit that posting on even a moderately sized laptop screen viewers will be able to see the "BBO Announcements and Special Events" forum, and presumably be more aware of general BBO happenings.

[JustaDummy]

I belong to many forums, not just this one (and none about bridge apart from this one). I've seen many posts in many of these forums, made in response to a newbie. In most of these forums, typically a newbie will start off with something like, "I hope this isn't a stupid question, but…" and typically someone will come up with the old mantra, "There is no such thing as a stupid question," as if everyone reading the forum is just waiting for a chance to answer the question, with no interest in its level.

 

That just sucks. Sorry. There may not be anything like a stupid question, and I actually believe that to be true, but there absolutely IS such a thing as an inappropriate one. Here is an example.

 

Let's say I'm posting in the Expert forum, and my question is, "I have 13 HCP and a five card Spade suit, with nothing much anywhere else. What should I open with?" (I post in the expert forum because I want the best answer, of course. Bear with me for the moment, I'm exploring principles here.)

 

The question is valid. The forum is not.

 

The question is valid because there is an answer, which the poster seeks. This is the basis of the "no such thing a s stupid question" mantra. The forum is not valid, because everyone apart from the poster knows that everyone in the expert forum (and below) knows the answer to that question as though they were born with that basic info stamped on their diaper (nappy, for Europeans).

 

I don't make this point in order that some folks here might respond with, "Well, that is a completely wrong forum for that question." My point is about the question, and what it means in relation to the mantra "There is no such thing as a stupid question." Just making that clear.

 

So the question is independently valid. But dependently invalidated.

 

On the other hand, no one as far as I have seen, is interested in the validity of any of the answers. That, as far as I can see, is a free-for-all.

 

Some of those responses are good. Some are freaking excellent! I posted earlier that I was astounded that international bridge experts contributed to the B/I forum - that was not an indication of dismay at all, despite some responses. My astonishment was (assuming that beginner questions would prevail) that any top level player could find the time, given the low level of queries that I'd expect of a true beginners forum.

 

which prompted me to think that B/I is really not a beginners' forum at all.

 

This forum is good, but it actually really doesn't help true beginners.

[squealydan]

This forum is good, but it actually really doesn't help true beginners.

 

As has been pointed out, if there are any true beginners out there who find the existing content a bit offputting, the solution is for more beginners to ask questions.

 

I'm not convinced that there would ever be enough of a market for a true beginner only forum (all beginners I know learn at clubs, and so have a place to ask questions - they also progress at a proscribed pace with little incentive to go any quicker...). However, if BBO did relaunch the forums with a B-only section, would it be possible to send an email to all registered users who self-describe as "Novice" or "Beginner" to let them know that kindly experts may be on hand to help them?

[mike777]

As has been pointed out, if there are any true beginners out there who find the existing content a bit offputting, the solution is for more beginners to ask questions

 

 

 

You made the best point......I have no doubt bbo forums/Ben/Rain/Fred/etc would love to respond to that complaint.

 

In other words BBO/forums would in an instant respond to a demand for more Beg. level content.

 

If the demand/interest is not there they can adjust again. My guess is the cost is pretty low for giving this a try.

[wyman]

As has been pointed out, if there are any true beginners out there who find the existing content a bit offputting, the solution is for more beginners to ask questions.

 

I'm not convinced that there would ever be enough of a market for a true beginner only forum (all beginners I know learn at clubs, and so have a place to ask questions - they also progress at a proscribed pace with little incentive to go any quicker...).

 

Two points: First, semantics, but I think a solution is for more beginners to ask questions in the existing fora, not necessarily the solution. Second, I think there are fair arguments against a B-only forum. For example, players playing online and then posting on this forum are likely to move beyond a B forum extremely quickly, so its use might be infrequent. This is even (especially?) if the player isn't "learning" at clubs. Of course, it's good that beginners would learn quickly. Just saying that the forum might not get a heck of a lot of traffic -- or worse, intermediates not confident enough to "move up" would effectively make it an intermediate forum. All in all, I think the plusses outweigh the minuses.

 

In any case, until a change happens, it's good to encourage beginners to not be afraid to post in B/I; that's what it's there for.

[Statto]

On the other hand, no one as far as I have seen, is interested in the validity of any of the answers. That, as far as I can see, is a free-for-all.

If poor answers are posted you can be sure they will be contended.

 

My astonishment was (assuming that beginner questions would prevail) that any top level player could find the time, given the low level of queries that I'd expect of a true beginners forum.

If you joined a computer tips forum as a lUDDITE, wouldn't you rather someone knowledgeable replied to your posts? If all you got was other Luddites, wouldn't you go somewhere else?

[Cthulhu D]

My astonishment was (assuming that beginner questions would prevail) that any top level player could find the time, given the low level of queries that I'd expect of a true beginners forum.

 

which prompted me to think that B/I is really not a beginners' forum at all.

 

This is what I love about this forum. Francis, Gnasher, the J.Lall/Donn borg etc chipping in is a generally unprecedented level of access to world class players.

[JustaDummy]

If poor answers are posted you can be sure they will be contended.

Yes, they are. I see that happening in most posts here. And I see that the contentions simply serve to confuse me further.

If you joined a computer tips forum as a lUDDITE, wouldn't you rather someone knowledgeable replied to your posts? If all you got was other Luddites, wouldn't you go somewhere else?

I do of course understand your point. But to take your analogy to the extremes that I find here on B/I, you're suggesting that the following exchange in a computing forum is useful to the OP:

 

OP: " I have a Pentium 4 processor with 2 GB memory and an 80GB 7200 RPM HDD but I find that Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 can't render my scenes at anything approaching 15FPS. What can I do to improve this?

 

Responder 1: "Upgrade to FSX."

 

Responder 2: "Install more memory."

 

Responder 3: "What graphics card do you use?"

 

Responder 2 (again): "Ignore Responder 1! Do NOT upgrade to FSX with that machine!"

 

Responder 4: "Go away. You cannot use that software with your hardware."

 

Responder 5: "Your processor is too slow for MSFS. Upgrade your processor to a quad."

 

Responder 6: "Do NOT believe Responder 5! MSFS 2004 is NOT multiple processor savvy. You will just waste money.

 

---The trouble here is that all the responders (apart from #1) are all partly correct, but none are helpful except for #3, which contains the germ of a solution, but that gets swamped by the other stuff.

 

My point is that there will absolutely be contention regarding poor, and sometimes even good, responses, but I, as a beginner, am simply not equipped to tell the difference. I can do that in a computing forum (you guessed) but not here. Not yet.

 

So, OK. I can go elsewhere, but then I see the gap between Fred's "Learn to Play Bridge" and this starter forum, and I just wonder what the agenda is for BBO.

[JustaDummy]

This is what I love about this forum. Francis, Gnasher, the J.Lall/Donn borg etc chipping in is a generally unprecedented level of access to world class players.

It is indeed gratifying. But I don't need that, yet. Once I get to the Intermediate level (if I ever do), I'll truly welcome their input. But right now, it's the firehose syndrome. And I'm not able at this stage to do any filtering at all. My back is against the wall as it is. Maybe it's just me, but as one poster said, 67% of all BBO members have never posted anything on any of these forums…

 

I'm maybe beginning to see why.

[Cthulhu D]

---The trouble here is that all the responders (apart from #1) are all partly correct, but none are helpful except for #3, which contains the germ of a solution, but that gets swamped by the other stuff.

 

 

I see you've been to an IT forum before. The reality is most forums suffer from this issue, because there is no central authority kicking around to moderate the debate (except from a compliance perspective). The issue of a diversity of opinion with no real guidance or moderation is always going to occur no matter how you recut the forum structure itself. Up/Down voting is an attempt to address this issue by removing the noise, but has other problems.

 

It's a bit less bad here because there are a tight group of posters who's responses I will automatically take very seriously, because they have won Big Events in the Real World, and I can safely ignore myself as I have not won anything ever.

 

To get what you want you need to have an applications process and a penned in newbie area where a newbie can post his question and only 'newbie helpers' can reply to the thread. I am not sure this a good idea more generally as it impacts discussion, but it does lend a 'quality assured by FG' stamp to all discussions.

 

When participating in a lightly moderated discussion forum you're essentially swinging up at a random conversation at your bridge club and saying 'So what about X.' This is going to give you a mix of good and bad advice, some great thoughts, some '1S WTP' and someone who wants to talk about their local sporting team or how much they hate the political party of your choice. Given that there are no standard answers there, there are not going to be standard answers here. It's just a bigger club.

[Antrax]

JustaDummy, can you explain why you're worrying about what might be instead of just posting a question or several questions and seeing what happens?

[gwnn]

JustaDummy, I think Antrax is right. I think -no guarantees, but on the balance of probabilities- if you ask a basic question it usually yields wide consensus from the non-B (or in your notation non-R) contributors. That will help both you and us - there are some ugly flamewars and general disagreements in a lot of threads, so everyone agreeing will help us bond as a community. I think your questions (about what Michaels etc are) have been answered patiently and accurately by Mike H. It was probably also stuff you could follow, although if parts were hazy, you could ask for clarification and you bet someone would help. I'm not sure what exactly you're saying. I think you should stick around and see what happens. :)

[JustaDummy]

JustaDummy, can you explain why you're worrying about what might be instead of just posting a question or several questions and seeing what happens?

Well, it's fairly moot now. But it depends on what you want from a forum. I personally don't just want somewhere to post questions and get answers. I want a place to discuss stuff among my peers, in a true multi-way conversation, not always a pupil-teacher session. For me, the B/I forum was more the latter than the former. Hopefully the N/B forum will be the reverse!