Constructive or Obstructive 1NT overcalls.

[jtfanclub]

Match points RHO dealt, and opens a 2/1 1 diamond.

 

You are playing 1NT overcalls as 12-15. You pick up this hand:

[hv=d=e&s=sq92hj9dqt52cak97]133|100|[/hv]

 

Would you overcall 1NT, or pass?

 

I argue that overcalling 1NT means that you consider 1NT obstructive- you don't expect to make it if partner doesn't invite, you don't expect to make it if partner invites, you don't expect partner to make it if he bids game (or at least, you shouldn't). On the other hand, you've likely obstructed the opponent's bidding to the point that they'll not get to their best contract.

 

If you pass, you consider 1NT constructive: you don't want partner responding constructively and finding out that you have less than he imagined.

 

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer- I'm just curious to know how most people play it.

 

Thanks.

[Free]

Yes, ALWAYS! If you agree 12-15, then you have to make advantage of that, and bid whenever you can :D Btw, you might escape to 2♣ in case of doubles.

[luke warm]

12-15 is what i open 1nt, but there's a difference between opening and overcalling ... they presumeably have shared meaningful information in this case... i would overcall this only in balancing position

[pclayton]

Einstein said: "You cannot simultaneously prepare for, and prevent war" (or words to that effect....Source: bumper sticker on a '72 beetle seen in Missoula, Montana, 1984).

 

A 12-15 NT overcall cannot simultaneously be destructive AND constructive; and I would argue that it is neither. It gives the opponents a 'free shot'. By definition, you have length in righty's suit, so your chances of finding a playable spot at the TWO level are greatly diminished. And if partner has a hand that wants to invite game, the call does not enhance your chances; rather it 'wrong-sides' the contract (you almost ALWAYS want the strong hand on lead)

 

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

[Flame]

You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system, so now you dont have a choice you have 12-15 bal with a stop and must bid 1nt.

After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

[jtfanclub]

You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system

 

I'm asking for people who have developed such a system, which way do they play it?

 

After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

 

To what? Or are you saying I should pull a Ron and change to MOSCITO or something?

[jtfanclub]

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

I don't know what overcall structure is.

 

I like 12-15 NT overcalls across an unpassed hand. They're strong enough not to get punished often, and they help define the other overcalls. With 16-18 balanced I just X- if partner can't jump, I'll pass and take my chances. I'm sure I've had balanced 19+ counts when the opponents opened, but I can't seem to remember them.

[pclayton]

Matthew: If you are bored with a strong NT overcall, try overcall structure or Raptor.

I don't know what overcall structure is.

 

I like 12-15 NT overcalls across an unpassed hand. They're strong enough not to get punished often, and they help define the other overcalls. With 16-18 balanced I just X- if partner can't jump, I'll pass and take my chances. I'm sure I've had balanced 19+ counts when the opponents opened, but I can't seem to remember them.

If you've decided that the double should be the balanced 16-18 - good! You are almost there B).

 

Here's a link: http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/system/foutnote.txt

 

Note - I DONT recommend their ideas for the 1 level overcall and the double-jump overcalls. The balance of the system is excellent.

[Flame]

You cant have this question at the table, you already decided it when you developed the system

 

I'm asking for people who have developed such a system, which way do they play it?

 

After the board you can (and imo should) change your system.

 

To what? Or are you saying I should pull a Ron and change to MOSCITO or something?

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.

I never heard of anyone playing 1NT as 12-15, the normal is 15-18 , and there are those who play RAPTOR.

[jtfanclub]

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.

No...it's like playing 1C as 12-21, and deciding that a particular 12 point hand isn't worth opening. This hand has 12 hcp, but clearly isn't worth as much as an average 12 point hand.

 

I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening.

[the hog]

"I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening. "

 

Huh? Please lets play for money - lots of it!

[jtfanclub]

"I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening. "

 

Huh? Please lets play for money - lots of it!

Be happy to, but you'll have to fly me to Australia.

 

Do you play 1NT openings as 12-15? And if so, what do you play your overcalls as?

[the hog]

12-14 NT opening

overcalls 15 1/2 -18 or Raptor 9-15 depending on with whom I am playing.

 

I like your 12-15 idea so much I am going to recommend it to all I know - especially to those in my rubber bridge group. (My pd and I are probably a bit too old fashioned to play such high tech gadgetry).

[pbleighton]

jt-

 

As to your specific question, if you are playing 12-15, and not 12+-15, then overcall. This is hardly the worst balanced 12 count you will be dealt.

 

As to the 12-15 1NT overcall:

 

I play 10-13 NT NV and 12-14 Vul, and love it (well, actually really love it NV and it's decent vul). I play 1NT overcall 15-18 standard, however.

 

The beauty of weak NT as opener is that is:

1) a reasonable, if somewhat flawed, constructive bid

2) a fairly effective and fairly safe preempt

3) very common

 

2 is really the key. As an overcall, 1NT is both less effective and less safe than as an opener, because the opponents have made an opening bid. I'm sure that you are right, that it has worked for you so far, but have you played it regularly against decent players who have bothered to put together a defense against it? I think you would get creamed eventually, especially at IMPs. Ron, in his tender way, obviously agrees B)

 

I think this could work NV at matchpoints, with a runout structure. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch it.

 

Peter (who loves unsound preempts)

[luke warm]

I like your 12-15 idea so much I am going to recommend it to all I know - especially to those in my rubber bridge group. (My pd and I are probably a bit too old fashioned to play such high tech gadgetry).

heh heh

 

yeah, maybe a little too high tech for me also..

 

As an overcall, 1NT is both less effective and less safe than as an opener, because the opponents have made an opening bid.

that was my point... once the ops have exchanged info, no matter how little or how much that might be, the main advantage of the weak nt has been lost (the preemption effect)

 

frankly, that's the only reason i play mini or weak... but it's a good enough reason in my opinion that i don't want to even consider changing

[Flame]

If the system is 12-15 then you must bid 1nt that very simple thats why i say there is no question, just like when you have 12 hcp and 6 card hearts you dont start thinking if you like to play 1h as a trasnfer to spade, or maybe you better play 2h as showing a minimum opening with unbalanced hand, those systems are good but your system tell you to open 1H and you do.

No...it's like playing 1C as 12-21, and deciding that a particular 12 point hand isn't worth opening. This hand has 12 hcp, but clearly isn't worth as much as an average 12 point hand.

 

I don't think 12-15 NT overcalls are uncommon when you also play them as your opening.

What can i tell you, those 12 are normal , but yes if yuo consider it as a weak 12 you can pass, but then this isnt a contractive obstructive question, just an evaluation question.

[Gerben47]

Bid it with this hand if you like. I am not ready for such high tech bids perhaps my rubber opponents are. I will stick to old-fashioned Polish NT overcall in the meantime.

[Chamaco]

Weak NT opener has many advantages, but one of them is to hinder the description of oppoents hands, when our pard is unpassed.

 

When pard is unpassed, opponents will have to take risks to show a minimum opener, especially if balanced: this is because the pard of weak Notrumper may be sitting for a double.

 

Also, even when overcalling a weak NT is safe, the hand often is not easy to describe.

 

Now let's turn to the case when we OVERCALL a weak NT.

Now things are reversed:

 

1- opener has started to describe the hand (whereas in the other case he had to overcall, soemtimes with weird sequences)

2- this time, it is our LHO who may be sitting for a very loud double

 

In other words, overcall 1NT many times will just give opps the "fielder's choice", exactly the opposite of what happens on many hands when we open weak NT with unpassed pard.

[jtfanclub]

1- opener has started to describe the hand (whereas in the other case he had to overcall, soemtimes with weird sequences)

2- this time, it is our LHO who may be sitting for a very loud double

 

In other words, overcall 1NT many times will just give opps the "fielder's choice", exactly the opposite of what happens on many hands when we open weak NT with unpassed pard.

How did I end up arguing this? That does seem the norm here, though...you ask a question of "what do you do with this system" and the answer is "your system sucks", usually from people who've never actually tried it, played against it much, or studied it.

 

I don't question that 1NT overcalls are more dangerous than 1NT openings.

 

However, a couple of points...

 

1. On equal strength hands, which is the most likely case, the first side to bid 1NT is often the winner. It's not uncommon for both sides to be able to make 1NT, and that be the limit of the hand. This is especially true if I have length and strength in their suit.

 

2. Because 12-15 tends to be 'equal strength', which means that should we run we may very well make it. Even if my partner has few points but a long suit, we may make it. Doubling at the two level is dangerous for a number of reasons.

 

3. I find that it has good pre-emptive value over 1 of a minor (because outside of figeting responder has no way to show exactly 4 of one major but not the other). Over 1 of a major, they may also have no way of finding their 4-4 fit in the other major.

 

4. When you start playing against opponents who open with unbalanced 8 counts, you start finding ways to bid constructively. When my partner has a constructive hand, I've made it much easier to bid. More and more people are opening at the 1 level with those unbalanced 8s. If you like tossing in your hand and giving them a top when you and your partner each have a balanced 13 count, be my guest.

 

5. 15-18 NTs are more dangerous than 12-15. For one thing, you've told them they don't have game, so they aren't going to end up trying to figure out if -300/-500 is a top for them or not: you've told them that it is. Often running to an 8 card fit down 2 is a good board with 12-15, it isn't with 15-17. And 15-17 isn't anywhere near as safe as many people seem to think: 17 across 1 is a lousy 1NT, 12 across 6 isn't. The truth is, penalty X's come up a lot less often than people think over 12-15 1NT (or even 10-13NT), and they don't work as well as people think.

 

6. X works just fine with 15-18 balanced in the usual systems, because partner will jump with a good 8+. You aren't going to miss many games by doubling and then passing partner's nonjump bid.

 

I don't even know why I'm bothering. People who've never seen it played are going to go with the usual condescending crap. Some won't even bother to read this. I don't claim to be an expert (though the person teaching me it is), and I don't feel a real need to defend it. You like it, fine. You don't like it, even better. After all, maybe someday I'll have to play against you.

[Chamaco]

2.  Because 12-15 tends to be 'equal strength', which means that should we run we may very well make it.  Even if my partner has few points but a long suit, we may make it.  Doubling at the two level is dangerous for a number of reasons. 

 

 

- why should your partner exactly the hand you need ?

If you have such a partner, I would be delighted to play some hands with him on BBO, since my pards usually tend to put down a "normal" dummy... :o

 

- doubling at the 2 level is as dangerous as a 1NT overcall: it is risky when opps have the balance of power and we have to scramble for a fit; this will occurr in both cases;

At least at the 1-level, though, if we double rather than overcalling 1NT we have a greater chance to stop at the 1 level (safer), whereas if we bid 1NT and we are doubled, there is no coming back :-)

 

3.  I find that it has good pre-emptive value over 1 of a minor (because outside of figeting responder has no way to show exactly 4 of one major but not the other).  Over 1 of a major, they may also have no way of finding their 4-4 fit in the other major.

 

- it does have some preemptive power; however, the risk involved in preempts varies a lot according to different situations (amount of info exchanged by opps, having limited their hand or notl, vulnerability, seat, etc); opening 1NT (rather than overcalling) can be damaging, because neither of opps knows yet if his pard has points.

 

So overcalling after an opener assumes much more risks than OPENING weak NT.

This may be justified by "stealing" their major fit;

However, this advantage will be compensated negatively by the symmetric disadvantage: when we have a 4-4 major fit and pard is weakish, he will pass your weak NT and you'll lose your major fit as well.

(As they say "1NT buries fits, both ours and opps' ")

 

So you are taking a risk (big penalties) for a potential advantage which on percentage will be compensated by the same disadvantage.

 

4.  When you start playing against opponents who open with unbalanced 8 counts, you start finding ways to bid constructively.  When  my partner has a constructive hand, I've made it much easier to bid.  More and more people are opening at the 1 level with those unbalanced 8s.  If you like tossing in your hand and giving them a top when you and your partner each have a balanced 13 count, be my guest.

 

I don't get it, sorry.

If both myself and my pard have a balanced 13 count, one of us will probably double, or balance with 1NT.

Of course you know that balancing with 1NT with a weak NT hand is usually not risky.

 

 

5.  15-18 NTs are more dangerous than 12-15. 

 

You have to discriminate 1NT openers from 1NT overcalls.

And you have to consider whether 1NT is 2nd/3rd or 4th seat.

It does change A LOT.

 

6.  X works just fine with 15-18 balanced in the usual systems, because partner will jump with a good 8+.  You aren't going to miss many games by doubling and then passing partner's nonjump bid. 

 

Sure, that's why I play Raptor :-)

 

 

I don't even know why I'm bothering.  People who've never seen it played are going to go with the usual condescending crap. 

 

If you post your thoughts here I think you should be happy to hear different opinions from yours.

That's the reason why I like the BB Forum, I can hear some opinions diferent from those I would hear at the club.

 

When I hear that many people here think the opposite of what I think, I start wondering whether I may be wrong.

You may consider doing the same, if you like to.

Or to go on as you do now, up to you :D

[jtfanclub]

- why should your partner exactly the hand you need ?

If you have such a partner, I would be delighted to play some hands with him on BBO, since my pards usually tend to put down a "normal" dummy...  :o

 

If opener is showing 26+ Zars or the like, and I have 12-15 hcp, the most likely case is that we have about the same number of HCP. That's what I mean by equal strength.

 

- doubling at the 2 level is as dangerous as a 1NT overcall: it is risky when opps have the balance of power and we have to scramble for a fit; this will occurr in both cases;

At least at the 1-level, though, if we double rather than overcalling 1NT we have a greater chance to stop at the 1 level (safer), whereas if we bid 1NT and we are doubled, there is no coming back

 

I disagree, to some extent. Doubling 1♠ is as dangerous as a 1NT overcall. There is, after all, no chance for us to escape at the 1 level. If you use a semiforcing pass for escape, you pass out 1NTX with 14-15 hcp and bid with 12-13. So after:

 

1♠ 1NT X P

 

Opener has to decide what to do. If he passes, I might pass, and if he opened light we may make it. He can't afford to wait around. On the other hand, after:

 

1♠ X XX P

 

Now he can afford to wait- nobody leaves in 1SXX. So the double is more dangerous both in that it gives them more bidding room, and it gives them more information to place the contract when they're considering game.

 

So overcalling after an opener assumes much more risks than OPENING weak NT. This may be justified by "stealing" their major fit;

However, this advantage will be compensated negatively by the symmetric disadvantage: when we have a 4-4 major fit and pard is weakish, he will pass your weak NT and you'll lose your major fit as well.

 

But since I'm balanced, the 4-4 fit is less likely to be useful to us.

Suppose I'm 4=2=4=3 and partner is 4=3=3=3. The 4-4 fit doesn't help us. Now suppose the opponents are 1=4=2=6 and 4=4=4=1. They're losing a lot more than we are by missing out on the major suit fit. That's an extreme example, but the point is that since I'm balanced, the 4-4 major suit fit is less important to find.

 

I don't get it, sorry.  If both myself and my pard have a balanced 13 count, one of us will probably double, or balance with 1NT.

 

If the bidding goes 1♠ P 2♠ P P, you aren't balancing with 1NT. It's very difficult to know whether to bid or not, especially if you have length and strength in spades. If you had bid 1NT, you can trust partner to know what to do.

 

Sure, that's why I play Raptor :-)

 

Oh, I'm sure Raptor and takeout 1NT (with power doubles) are superior. They just take a completely different mindset, and I'm not ready for them yet. Given that one is going to play 1NT as a balanced hand with a 3-5 point range, 12-15 seems to work as a good compromise between being useful and not being dangerous.

 

Frankly, when it comes to systems, I find that personal biases override considered opinions. However, I always enjoy a good, well thought out argument (in contrast to a "this sucks" post). I enjoyed your reply, and it did make me think.

 

But not enough to get rid of the 12-15 range, at least not until I'm ready to make the bid artificial.

[pclayton]

There is always a tendency in bridge to allow ego to seep into our decison making. Maybe we've had a few good results with a system thats 'different'. Maybe we just want to be cool by playing something that we feel is avant-garde, or progressive or whatever. Bias becomes our measuring stick, not fact. The posters that don't like the concept have their own biases; fair enough. Both sides will present information that supports their position, so the discussion becomes more subjective than objective. Personalities become infused, and before you know it - a flame war erupts.

 

I've played certain systems that I thought were pretty slick, and many players better than I would ask - why are you playing this business? Some things I've retained like overcall structure and Keri; other things I've dropped, like BART.

 

So, lets stick to the issues here.

1. On equal strength hands, which is the most likely case, the first side to bid 1NT is often the winner. It's not uncommon for both sides to be able to make 1NT, and that be the limit of the hand. This is especially true if I have length and strength in their suit.

 

I would agree with this assertion if neither side has a fit, especially at MP's NV. -50 = -90 for the same side taking 7 tricks at NT. Vulnerable its the opposite: -90 = -100. The idea of opening a mini or a 12-14 NT is that they start the bidding at the 2 level, without any idea of the strength that their partner holds. A 12-15 NT overcall does not accomplish this, since your RHO has gotten first crack at the auction.

 

When we do have a fit with partner, i would argue that the 12-15 1N overcall makes it more difficult to find that fit. We are in a 'scrambling mode', the 1N overcaller only shows 'points', it does not promise a certain tolerance for any suit, except maybe a doubleton.

 

2. Because 12-15 tends to be 'equal strength', which means that should we run we may very well make it. Even if my partner has few points but a long suit, we may make it. Doubling at the two level is dangerous for a number of reasons.

 

Doubling 2 of a minor is not dangerous at all to the defending side, but can be an absolute disaster playing the hand. If your partner has a long suit you might have a playable spot. But remember the basics of competitive bidding - if the have a fit, we have a fit. If they don't have a fit, we don't have a fit either. The original example you gave had QTxx in RHO's suit. This is a huge red flag for getting involved in the auction; since our having a fit is greatly diminished; as we have a stack in one of the opponents announced strains.

 

3. I find that it has good pre-emptive value over 1 of a minor (because outside of figeting responder has no way to show exactly 4 of one major but not the other). Over 1 of a major, they may also have no way of finding their 4-4 fit in the other major.

 

Many pairs have methods over 1N overcalls to ferret out their 4-4 major fits. One of the obvious is a 'raise' of the minor as sort of a negative double. Others play a version of capp or suction or DONT. Sure its not as easy as finding the fit as if they had a free run at the one level. But your methods make it difficult to find YOUR fit as well. You can't say in one tone that it hinders the opponents, but it doesn't hinder our ability to find our fit. If they double, you probably have a nice run-out to get to your 4-4 fit. But what if they DONT double? There you are, out on a limb going for -200 or -300 vul against air. Naturally a strong 1N overcall has this same advantage of preempting the one level, but with built in protection of additional strength.

 

4. When you start playing against opponents who open with unbalanced 8 counts, you start finding ways to bid constructively. When my partner has a constructive hand, I've made it much easier to bid. More and more people are opening at the 1 level with those unbalanced 8s. If you like tossing in your hand and giving them a top when you and your partner each have a balanced 13 count, be my guest.

 

Matthew - I think you need to make a decision on whether or not you intend this call to be constructive or destructive. If the intent is constructive, there are better ways to find a fit, and frankly, with more appropriate hands than a flat 12-15. If you want to defend against unbalanced 8 counts; overcall structure is a lot better method, because it punishes the opponents when we have a balance of power and not a fit and it allows us to jam the auction when we do have a fit with less than the balance of power.

 

When partner has a balanced 13 count; he is expected to reopen. OTOH getting involved with a balanced 13 count in the direct chair is problematic. Furthermore, commiting your side to 1N or 2 of suit with a balanced 13 opposite an unknown quantity is a questionable approach.

 

5. 15-18 NTs are more dangerous than 12-15. For one thing, you've told them they don't have game, so they aren't going to end up trying to figure out if -300/-500 is a top for them or not: you've told them that it is. Often running to an 8 card fit down 2 is a good board with 12-15, it isn't with 15-17. And 15-17 isn't anywhere near as safe as many people seem to think: 17 across 1 is a lousy 1NT, 12 across 6 isn't. The truth is, penalty X's come up a lot less often than people think over 12-15 1NT (or even 10-13NT), and they don't work as well as people think.

 

I'm losing you here. How can entering the auction with a stronger hand be more 'dangerous' than a weaker hand? You seem to be retreating back to the 'destructive' argument here when you say that "you've told them they don't have game, so they aren't going to end up trying to figure out if -300/-500 is a top for them or not". You seem to be under a mistaken assumption that the stronger we are, the weaker partner has to be. Certainly the stronger you are, the more potential the combined assets rate to be. I'm guessing the reason that the 12-15 NT doesn't get punished as often as you might think is that people are unfamiliar with the approach. Take that method to my club in Irvine, and it will get the treatment it deserves.

 

6. X works just fine with 15-18 balanced in the usual systems, because partner will jump with a good 8+. You aren't going to miss many games by doubling and then passing partner's nonjump bid.

 

About the only thing I substantively agree with you on.

 

Like it or not, this system gives up equity. As Chamaco says, you offer the opponents a fielder's choice; they get the opportunity to double you in 1N or the 2 level when they have the balance of power without a sizable fit; and when they end up playing the hand, they will have a good idea about where the location of the missing cards are. You are competing against pairs that will normally be passing these hands, and balancing after the opponents find their fit, if one even exists, which is negligible. You might win on a few random boards, even against good opponents, especially in a board-a-match situation, where you early action makes it easier for partner to compete against preemption from your LHO. But overall, I don't think its a sound approach.

 

As far as getting posts like this when you suggest a method, well , sorry. We try to be objectivist here, and I for one won't always say what you want to hear. I only offer these ideas to help others, with the contract that my ideas will be objectively listened to and feedback granted.

[luke warm]

How did I end up arguing this?  That does seem the norm here, though...you ask a question of "what do you do with this system" and the answer is "your system sucks", usually from people who've never actually tried it, played against it much, or studied it. 

 

~snip~

 

I don't even know why I'm bothering.  People who've never seen it played are going to go with the usual condescending crap.  Some won't even bother to read this.  I don't claim to be an expert (though the person teaching me it is), and I don't feel a real need to defend it.  You like it, fine.  You don't like it, even better.  After all, maybe someday I'll have to play against you.

you make a couple of assumptions here... how do you know the objections were made by people who have never tried it, much less seen it played?

 

the best point made, imo, was the one about the motive for playing a weak nt... it has great preemptive value... if you accept that as true, you have to also accept that a large part of this advantage disappears once the opponents have exchanged information

 

robson/segal wrote a whole book with this in mind... by overcalling a weak nt, it seems to me that your team is perforce making the last guess

[Chamaco]

I disagree, to some extent.  Doubling 1♠ is as dangerous as a 1NT overcall. .

Doubling 1 spades for me is equivalent as doubling at the 2 level, since it forces a 2-level response.

 

When I referred to "doubling at the 1 level" I meant doubles that allow pard to respond 1 of a suit

[Ulrich]

Ah the fickleness of the young and inexperienced! You ask a question and expect a response; you don't like the answer; you dummy the spit.

I regard this overcall as totally unsound and find it hard to believe that anyone suggesting it could even remotely be called an eggspurt.

 

If you wish a method of competing more ofte, I suggest 1N to show a weak takeout - about 9-11 shapely and X to show the stronger takeout; this at least has merit and has been played by strong players internationally.

 

Ulrich Freiherr von Liechtenstein.