An auction

[andrei]

MP:

 

1♣ - pass - 1♥ - pass

1♠ - pass - 2NT - pass

 

1. would 3♥ be forcing now?

2. or maybe 3♥ bidder thinks ♥ will play better than NT and prefers to play 3♥ over 2NT. does this exists?

3. does the form of scoring matter?

[Codo]

To me 3 ♥ shows a 4315 or 4306 hand and is not forcing, 3 ♦ would be forcing.

[aguahombre]

Not everyone (certainly not us) guarantees an unbalanced hand with the 1S rebid. Those who bypass 1S with, say 4-3-3-3, and rebid 1NT are the ones who need to throw the spade suit into the mix of NMF continuations; some of us don't want to do that.

 

Therefore:

1C-1H

1S-2N

3H......is merely accepting the game invite, but checking back for a 3-5 heart fit enroute. It is choice of games, hence forcing.

[gnasher]

Yes, no, no.

 

Obviously it shows a 4315 shape, or 4324/4333 if those are allowed in your methods. If responder is 3433 or 3442 he will presumably bid 3NT rather than play in a 4-3 fit. Therefore 3♥ should promise the values for game.

[ArtK78]

In standard bidding, any bid of 3 of a suit is forcing.

[aguahombre]

In standard bidding, any bid of 3 of a suit is forcing.

Not here. 3♥ should be. But 3C being forcing seems less than reasonable; rather just a weak opening bid with a lot of clubs choosing that strain for the signoff.

[ArtK78]

I apologize. I misread the auction.

 

3♣ and 3♠ are nonforcing assuming that 2NT was invitational.

 

3♥ is unclear, and may depend on the partnership's agreement. I would think that 3♥ is forcing and gives responder a choice of games.

[Phil]

3♥ is forcing. Think we had the identical (or very similar) auction on here a few years ago.

 

Inquiry said something interesting like: neither 1♣, 1♠ nor 2N are forcing, but 3♥ IS forcing.

[wank]

of course it's forcing

[broze]

of course it's forcing

 

"Of course?" You seem to make a lot of these kinds of unilateral statements in the forums without any justification. In my partnership I'm pretty sure this is not forcing since 2NT would deny a 5c ♥ suit so 3♥ would be some distributional hand unsuitable for NT.

[Finch]

It's forcing because you are bidding what may be a 4-3 fit, and no-one wants to remove a possible 2NT contract to a non-forcing non-fit.

 

Mind you, if you (i) always rebid 1S with a 4315/4306 distribution and (ii) play 2D (4th suit) as game forcing, you are on a bit of a guess in this auction. I don't play (i), so in common with many others rebidding 1S then raising hearts shows a strong hand.

[aguahombre]

It's forcing because you are bidding what may be a 4-3 fit, and no-one wants to remove a possible 2NT contract to a non-forcing non-fit.

 

Mind you, if you (i) always rebid 1S with a 4315/4306 distribution and (ii) play 2D (4th suit) as game forcing, you are on a bit of a guess in this auction. I don't play (i), so in common with many others rebidding 1S then raising hearts shows a strong hand.

Sorry, this confused my simple brain, and I want to understand the points.

 

(1) You don't always rebid 1S with 4-3-1-5 or 4-3-0-6. Does that mean because the strength might be wrong for it?

(2) Might you rebid 1S with balanced distributions and merely 3-hearts?

(3) This isn't a case where we have rebid 1S, then "raised" hearts; rather we are checking back enroute to accepting the NT game invitation. I don't think in this case your hand needs to be "strong".

[hatchett]

It is quite a common style to raise to 2♥ directly with a weak 4315 and only to bid 1♠ with extras with this shape.

Hence 3♥ after 2NT rebid shows a strong 4315 (assuming you rebid NTs with a balalanced hand)

[Finch]

Sorry, this confused my simple brain, and I want to understand the points.

 

(1) You don't always rebid 1S with 4-3-1-5 or 4-3-0-6. Does that mean because the strength might be wrong for it?

(2) Might you rebid 1S with balanced distributions and merely 3-hearts?

(3) This isn't a case where we have rebid 1S, then "raised" hearts; rather we are checking back enroute to accepting the NT game invitation. I don't think in this case your hand needs to be "strong".

 

(1) I would always raise hearts at once with a minimum 4315, so if I rebid 1S first and then raise hearts it shows a much stronger hand. This is a very common treatment, although certainly not universal.

(2) no. If I'm balanced, I bid or rebid NT (or possibly raise hearts with a low outside doubleton).

(3) Yes it is. We have rebid 1S, and then raised partner's suit in a position where we might not have a fit; that isn't a weak bid. I don't know why you seem to be disagreeing here - you have already said that you think 3H is forcing.

[aguahombre]

The disagreement is with the difference between "strong" (apparently because of your style inferences from the earlier round) and merely enough to accept an invite (but check for a heart fit along the way)....possible in our style, where we would rebid 1S with balanced minimums to avoid the convoluted or sometimes impossible methods of later finding a 4-4 spade fit.

 

Now, I understand your post. Thanks for the clarification.

[Codo]

Some easy questions:

1. What do you lose if you play 4. suit forcing and 3 ♥ nonforcing?

2. What do you fear if you bid your 4 card spade suit before you bid your 3 card heart suit with a 4306 or 4315?

[wank]

Some easy questions:

1. What do you lose if you play 4. suit forcing and 3 ♥ nonforcing?

2. What do you fear if you bid your 4 card spade suit before you bid your 3 card heart suit with a 4306 or 4315?

1) er.....i fear being at the 3 level in a 4-3 fit with nowhere to go when i could have played 2nt instead. i also fear never being able to get to a moysian 4♥ when it's correct (playing your methods opener bids 3♦ 4sf and responder is never going to bid 3♥ on 4)

 

2) i fear this auction then having no idea whether i should pass or bid 3♥.

 

this really isn't normally considered a contentious position.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 yes - 3H showes enough to accept the invite, caters for a 5 card suit with responder.

the later is espesially important, if you play FSF as GF, sick, but it is the trend.

#2 Forget this kind of thinking.

#3 No.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

1) er.....i fear being at the 3 level in a 4-3 fit with nowhere to go when i could have played 2nt instead. i also fear never being able to get to a moysian 4♥ when it's correct (playing your methods opener bids 3♦ 4sf and responder is never going to bid 3♥ on 4)

 

2) i fear this auction then having no idea whether i should pass or bid 3♥.

 

this really isn't normally considered a contentious position.

 

1. If you want to play 2 NT, you may pass 2 NT? Why cannot you reach a four three fit if you can reach it by a direct 3 ♥ bid? Because you forbid partner to bid 3 ♥ on four hearts? So it is fine to reach a four three fit, if you bid 3 heart, but not if he does?

 

2. I would fear to play 4-3 fits while missing a 4-4 fit.

 

3. If 3 ♥ shows 4315 (or similar) and forcing values, what does 3 ♦show?

 

"This is not contentious" is no reason. F.E. This had been true for the sequence 1 ♣ 1 ♥ too. It was not contentious that this must show hearts for all the time.

[JLOGIC]

3♥ is forcing. Think we had the identical (or very similar) auction on here a few years ago.

 

Inquiry said something interesting like: neither 1♣, 1♠ nor 2N are forcing, but 3♥ IS forcing.

 

This is not unusual at all and happens all the time when one hand shows invitational values opposite whatever their partner has shown. It would be noteworthy if everyone made non forcing and weak bids after the beginning of the auction, and then some bid was forcing, of course you will struggle to find instances of this for a reason...it wouldn't make much sense (eg 1C 1H 1S 1N 3H is still not forcing).

[hatchett]

 

3. If 3 ♥ shows 4315 (or similar) and forcing values, what does 3 ♦show?

 

It would show a 4135 (4405), probably a hand worried about hearts in NT

[MrAce]

Some easy questions:

1. What do you lose if you play 4. suit forcing and 3 ♥ nonforcing?

2. What do you fear if you bid your 4 card spade suit before you bid your 3 card heart suit with a 4306 or 4315?

 

 

1- 4th suit ( in this case ♦). If we use this as 4th suit, we LOSE the natural meaning of it such as

 

Axxx

--

AQxx

KQTxx

 

Axxx

x

AQx

KQTxx

 

Remember 3♥ bid is not only made for finding 5-3 fit before game but also gives partner some important information about your hand, for example

 

Axxx

AQx

x

KQTxx

 

vs

 

Kx

Kxxx

Txxx

AJx

 

Pd now knows what a great fitting hand u guys have and even if cant find slam, at least will not play inferior 3NT. Why would someone give away those benefits of natural bids in order to be able to play a 4-3 fit at 3 level when our side has 23-24 hcp ? Where is this NT phobia coming from ?

 

2- Again, why would someone want to rebid his 4 card ♠ at 3 level which he already showed ? It loses your ability to bid it natural with 6-5 or 5-5.

[Statto]

1- ... Why would someone give away those benefits of natural bids in order to be able to play a 4-3 fit at 3 level when our side has 23-24 hcp ? Where is this NT phobia coming from ?

+1

 

2- Again, why would someone want to rebid his 4 card ♠ at 3 level which he already showed ? It loses your ability to bid it natural with 6-5 or 5-5.

I think this is talking about if opener raises ♥ with 3 card support instead of rebidding 1♠. But even with this style, if opener is too strong for a simple 2♥ raise with 4=3=1=5, would they not rebid 1♠? So you'd still need a way of checking for a 5-3 ♥ fit after 2NT.