billw55 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Whoa there guys, maybe I was misunderstood. I was not talking about posting of accusations by any user. I was talking about posting of confirmed cases by site admins. I certainly support the policy against random accusations. For confirmed cases though, I do believe in public record. And that includes cases in live events as well. Yes, the standard of proof must be high, but once it is met I have no pity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 This isn't a court, there's no jury making a judgement "beyond reasonable doubt". There are investigations, and they come to a conclusion and take some action. But I don't think it rises to the standard of proof that would warrant public humiliation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I've been accused of cheating and do play out of the same ip address with my wife. I contacted BBO and proved that we didn't on the hand in question and can easily include any number of really stinky scores to back up the fact that we play fair. It really got my back up and if it happened through a forum post I would consider it a nightmare. My guess is that 80% of the accusations have no basis and regardless, 100% do not belong here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I've been accused of cheating and do play out of the same ip address with my wife. I contacted BBO and proved that we didn't on the hand in question and can easily include any number of really stinky scores to back up the fact that we play fair. It really got my back up and if it happened through a forum post I would consider it a nightmare. My guess is that 80% of the accusations have no basis and regardless, 100% do not belong here.Having crawled thru the attic to run router wire so my better half's computer could be on the other side of the house, I know where you are coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Naming and shaming leads to this kind of hysteria: http://news.bbc.co.u...ales/901723.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 There's not much that gets me really angry, but accusations of cheating are right up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I assume you mean public accusations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Whoa there guys, maybe I was misunderstood. I was not talking about posting of accusations by any user. I was talking about posting of confirmed cases by site admins. I certainly support the policy against random accusations. For confirmed cases though, I do believe in public record. And that includes cases in live events as well. Yes, the standard of proof must be high, but once it is met I have no pity.What's the point? If their nickname is published as a cheater they'll just make another. It's not like you know their real names, and even if you know their real name, nothing will prevent them from using another name for their new nickname... As long as you don't have to prove your identity before getting a user, then there's just no use in publishing their names. They might appreciate their second chance though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 There's not much that gets me really angry, but accusations of cheating are right up there. Quite. Bridge is a game, and you can't murder, rape or steal in a game. The worst thing you can do is cheat. However, there are people who have other ideas, and there is no way BBO can weed out all the cheats -- it would be very easy to cheat without drawing attention to yourself. For example, if you were running a single-dummy solver, you would not succeed with anti-percentage plays; all of your plays would be correct. Or if you are on the phone with partner, only use your knowledge of his cards for close decisions. So there will always be cheats, and there is no point in getting exercised about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarabin Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Quite. Bridge is a game, and you can't murder, rape or steal in a game. The worst thing you can do is cheat. However, there are people who have other ideas, and there is no way BBO can weed out all the cheats -- it would be very easy to cheat without drawing attention to yourself. For example, if you were running a single-dummy solver, you would not succeed with anti-percentage plays; all of your plays would be correct. Or if you are on the phone with partner, only use your knowledge of his cards for close decisions. So there will always be cheats, and there is no point in getting exercised about it.This brings up a nice point and one I have not seen answered. Is using artificial aids (e.g. notepad, card combination tables, single dummy solver, bidding notes) cheating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 This brings up a nice point and one I have not seen answered. Is using artificial aids (e.g. notepad, card combination tables, single dummy solver, bidding notes) cheating? I'd have to answer "It depends" Consider the following two examples 1. You are competing in the ACBL championship to identify the best collegiate team in North America 2. You and your partner are learning a new system. You and a couple friends open up a table so you can practice. Everyone knows that you're using crib sheets. The first example is clearly cheating. I don't think that the second example is, even though you arguably are impacting the MP scores of anyone else who plays the board. Somewhere in between these two cases lies a rather fuzzy dividing line...I'm not sure precisely where this lies. I will note that many (most?) sponsoring authorities ban the use of memory aides... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 This brings up a nice point and one I have not seen answered. Is using artificial aids (e.g. notepad, card combination tables, single dummy solver, bidding notes) cheating? It is, as per Law40C3(a). But the regulating authority can make an exception, and I think that perhaps online bridge sites should do so, at least to the extent of convention cards -- especially since there are so many pick-up partnerships, who may have had little or no discussion but do have a convention card available. Aids to play seem clearly wrong, but any prohibition cannot be enforced, so I think that for online bridge the regulation should be that "anything goes". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Aids to play seem clearly wrong, but any prohibition cannot be enforced, so I think that for online bridge the regulation should be that "anything goes".The prohibition on improper communication can't be enforced either, but we still prohibit it. I don't think this is any different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 but any prohibition cannot be enforced, A few years ago whne the Canadian Juniour Trials were first held online volunteer monitors were recruited for all the players. I'm not sure if that is still done for such events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 A few years ago whne the Canadian Juniour Trials were first held online volunteer monitors were recruited for all the players. I'm not sure if that is still done for such events.We do that when the qualifying rounds of the ACBL Collegiate Championship are done online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 The prohibition on improper communication can't be enforced either, but we still prohibit it. I don't think this is any different.The difference is that investigators can infer improper communication, based on unusual actions taken by the players. Individual cases are not conclusive, but a history of such actions may strain credibility if nothing nefarious is taking place. But memory and calculation aids are practically impossible to detect remotely, since they're not likely to result in remarkable actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarabin Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Returning to bridge at my age, and after a lapse of about 30 years, I find that I have too many lapses of concentration to count suits etc. I wrote a program ( a sort of expanded version of Bridge Master's suit count) to count and record/synthesize suit lengths, honors in the unseen hands. I use it when playing Bridge Master, Reese classics, etc. and here cheating is not an issue. Without this program I would probably embarrass other players on BBO, with it I'd probably be a touch slow but it appears also cheating? I must admit it probably enables me to play a bit better than I remember playing in the early 1980's. I hasten to say I have never used the program online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Using it in actual games would be a violation of Law 40C3a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 For many reasons, some don't condsider play on-line to be "actual games". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I recommend you this hand I played today: http ://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?myhand=M-26193417-1331489034 To find out how to cheat in style ! I don't know what opps said after this one but there were a lot of words and all in Turkish.You really need to be careful with cheating accusations as you could easily find many hands like that played by honest players who just lucked out, especially if they are weak and do many random things (like us).I think reporting/detecting/investigating cheating in online bridge is futile effort, at least in settigns where full names and other personal details are unknown.Once we have some kind of verification process and tournaments for verified players then it would make more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I don't think anyone would be able to detect you using your counting program -- most players are able to count suits and keep track of the missing honors, and decent people can keep track of all the spots as well, so your play with it wouldn't look too unusual. Only someone who knew that you normally have trouble doing this would be able to tell when you're using it. The same thing goes for looking at your own CC -- remembering your agreements is expected, so no one would be able to tell the difference between you using your memory and peeking. Cheating gets suspected when players do strange things that happen to work out, and a pattern of this acts as confirmation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonFa Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 I recommend you this hand I played today: http ://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?myhand=M-26193417-1331489034 To find out how to cheat in style ! I don't know what opps said after this one but there were a lot of words and all in Turkish.You really need to be careful with cheating accusations as you could easily find many hands like that played by honest players who just lucked out, especially if they are weak and do many random things (like us).I think reporting/detecting/investigating cheating in online bridge is futile effort, at least in settigns where full names and other personal details are unknown.Once we have some kind of verification process and tournaments for verified players then it would make more sense. I have 2 monitors on my PC and keep a Google translate window open in one of them. Most of the time its the typical bickering you get between partners and sometimes it looks like a pair is practicing and discussing what bids mean/meant. If its the MBC I don't really care, let them practice if have found a semi competent player I am happy to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighLow21 Posted March 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 <snip> To find out how to cheat in style ! <snip>Nevermind. Barry nailed it --> we're not talking about a single hand or two that demonstrates that an error was made and happens to work out. We're talking about a pattern of unbelievably fortunate calls that are well outside the norm. Once or twice it's quite probably good luck. Five or ten times in a 20 hand session? It's cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 As aids to play are impossible to detect, I think it is fair to say that there will always be people using them. But anyway, people who mind cheating on BBO can just play Farmville instead. If they really prefer to play bridge they can: Attend a local duplicate or rubber bridge clubJoin a local leagueGo to a tournamentInvite 3 friends over and play some rubbers, or 7 friends and have a team match. et cetera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarabin Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.