new auction

[Finch]

You have your usual great hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjt42ht5dt632cj94]133|100[/hv]

 

Here are two auctions... what has partner got, and what do you do now?

RHO deals

 

2♦ P P dbl

P 2♠ P 3♦

P 3♠ P 4♣

P ?

 

..and here's another auction (you'll have to forget the first one when you look at the second, and vice versa).

This time your opponents are not playing a weak 2D opening.

P P P 2♣

3♦ P 4♦ P

P dbl P 4NT

P ?

 

(your agreements are that your pass over 3♦ was your weakest bid (double would have shown some values); the rest is new to you)

[CSGibson]

Partner has a game force with clubs (hopefully he would re-cue 4♦ with real spades). Since I believe 4♣ to be forcing, I bid 5♣ as the least encouraging thing I can do.

[gnasher]

In the first sequence he has a game-force with some clubs. I have enough clubs to support him and not enough Miltons to envisage slam, so I bid 5♣.

 

In the second, I think that without a suit agreed, pass-and-pull should show doubt about strain. With that general agreement:

- A direct 4NT would have been natural based on long clubs.

- The delayed 4NT shows a two-suiter.

- A major two-suiter would have bid 5♦ at some point

- Therefore this is clubs and a major.

So I bid 5♣.

 

If your general agreement is that pass-and-pull shows extras, it's presumably an extra-values two-suiter, but I still bid 5♣.

[akhare]

5♣ on both.

 

On #1 it's because pard ostensibly showed ♣s; on the second because pard likely has two places to play and would have presumably bid 5♦ with the majors.

[mikeh]

On the first one, I can see two reasonable possibilities:

 

1. He has a good hand with running clubs and his 3♦ was an effort to reach 3N: Ax Axx x AKQJxxx seems reasonable. This doesn't apply if a reopening 3♦ would have been stopper-ask, but I suspect that the common treatment for that call is both majors. If my example hand is shown by 3♦, then I revert to the second possibility, which is

 

2. He has a gf with clubs. Whether he also has hearts is difficult to say, unless that hand would be shown by a forcing 4♣ balance.

 

Since I don't know which he has (and he may have something I haven't thought of) and since he may have intended this as forcing....and it's unlikely that the opps can double or that we're more than 1 or 2 off....I'll bid 5♣

 

 

 

 

 

On the second one, he has long clubs and a major: I'd guess 4=6 or so, and a very good hand, so I'd bid 5♣. I think with 5-5, he should just suck it up and bid 4M, unless his hand is good enough to, in essence, force to slam, in which case he is not passing 5♣, and we can get back to spades if he bids them.

[lalldonn]

The first auction is a game force with primary clubs. It's open to partnership agreement whether you can stop in 4 of a minor on "game forcing" auctions in interference, as clee and jdonn do.

 

The second auction is weird to me. Clubs and a major doesn't make sense because partner would bid his major over the double with that. Some might think that auction is a strong way to bid 4 of the major but that wouldn't make sense after we have already shown a very weak hand, so that should show two places to play. Another possible meaning of the 4NT call is natural, but not only doesn't that make sense based on our hand but partner could have bid that the round before. Clubs and a 4 card major makes a little sense, but how often will we want to run from clubs to the major in that case? Even if we were 4432 it's not at all clear a major would be better, and if we were 5-3 or something in the majors we would miss our fit if we had it anyway. At the table I would bid 5!C since it caters to everything but natural, but I'm curious to see what this player had.

[aguahombre]

Do we have another alter ego for Justin?

[bigbenvic]

the first hand looks like a hand just short of game force to me.

 

If pards wanted to bid game he'd bid 5c I think I'm passing. 3d a serious bid, he's happy to be in 3nt if I can stop ♦, not sure when he bids 4c that he has game in his own hand. 3 trumps to the J and a doubleton isn't enough for me to bid game here. Though I concede he could claim to have been having doubt as to which game 4s or 5c so offering me a choice, but without agreements I'm not sold that it is clearly forcing.

 

In the second was I forced to action when he passes 4d? I assume so.

4nt looks like 1 of 2 things, Blackers (yuck but possible w/o agreements) or an attempt at a game, solid suit (not a Major so obv clubs) and about 9 top tricks with no diamond cover.

 

I feel as though I'm forced to bid 5c here either way, I have no aces and I can't stop ♦.

[benlessard]

On the 1st hand partner can surely have hands like

 

xx

AKQx

x

AKQTxx

 

So i dont think 4C is forcing.

 

For the 2nd bidding i think partner didnt want to play 4D doubled, so he didnt risk making a takeout X, so he must have 11 tricks in his hand and a (34)06 shapes without solid clubs, hes hoping that i can bid a 5M or bid 5D with both M 4/4 or that ill bid 5C. I wont bet my house on it but its the only reasonable thing I see, this is expert partnership only of course.

[JLOGIC]

The second auction is a strong 5C bid in context of the auction and I think that's obv

[mich-b]

The second auction is a strong 5C bid in context of the auction and I think that's obv

 

Strong enough for me to raise? (If I showed a bad hand so far than probably I should..)

[benlessard]

The second auction is a strong 5C bid in context of the auction and I think that's obv

 

I disagree, he could have bid 5C directly, pass and bid 5C (stronger). Do you really need a 3rd way to show a big hand with clubs ? IMO you can have 3 suiters hands that you simply dont want to double with.

 

Hand like

 

AKx

AKQx

--

AKxxxx

 

are just more likely than a 11.5 clubs hands.

 

PS Ive learned that pass and pull is stronger and assume its standard, what is most people style in general ?

[gnasher]

The second auction is a strong 5C bid in context of the auction and I think that's obv

 

Over 4♦ he had:

- Direct 5♣

- Delayed 4NT

- Delayed 5♣

 

Are you saying these are all the same hand-type with different strengths, or are there qualitative differences as well?

[Fluffy]

First one, partner has clubs, I though he has 3 spades as well and is suggesting them as a strain because he didn't bid 4♣ over 2♠, but now I read he might be trying for 3NT and it makes sense also.

 

On the second one 4NT is natural to play. It cannot be with our diamond holding but perhaps he wised with our double that we had a stopper, we do not have a stopper unless he has a unlikelly stiff honnor, I'd bid 5♣ now but at the table it would be harder to figure out that he has long clubs.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Do we have another alter ego for Justin?

Call him J-J for short ( Justin-Josh ).

[Finch]

The second auction is a strong 5C bid in context of the auction and I think that's obv

 

That's the one hand type I thought is obviously wasn't; partner already has 5C over 4D, and pass then 5C over 4D; why does he need a third way of showing a game force with clubs?

[JLOGIC]

I think pass and then 5C would just looking to see if partner could bid 4M rather than being a strong 5C bid (aka a flexible hand). I think pass and then 4N is your strong 5C bid. Bidding 5C immediately is just a hand that knows it wants to play 5C.

[Finch]

OK, what's pass and 5NT?

What's 5NT over 4D?

 

(You may think these sound improbable calls, but I had the hand opposite and was seriously considering them)

[JLOGIC]

Specifically defining 5N vs pass then 5N vs 5D vs pass then 5D are all beyond the scope of any agreements I've had. I'm sure you could do so in a logical coherent way to have subtle graded differences but at the table I would not be sure. I think the 5Ns should be more specific since you could bid pass then 5D which leaves you more room. I would think direct 5D would just be majors. Perhaps the 5Ns should show specific club + major hands, or have more emphasis on clubs, or something like that.

[benlessard]

I think I like Justin way of playing, I play that pass and 4H would show like 5H+4/5S or 5H+5C pass and 5S would show 5S+5 clubs, i think this is pretty standard. If i pass 4D i would expect partner to bid only with a 5 card suits or maybe a 4 card if hes short in D. So when you have a 4405/3406 you just pass and bid 5C, partner with 4/4M can bid 5D. So basically all pass and pull show doubt of strain rather than extra the same way a double and bid show, make a lot of sense to me.

 

I think direct 5D is both M with light slam interest/ or willing to play slam anyway

delayed 5D is both M heavy slam interest (always a D void)

 

direct 5M is slam try.

delayed 5M is 5M+clubs slam try.

 

5Nt is clubs + M

delayed 5Nt clubs +M with 7 still in the picture.

[Finch]

The first one I agree is more obvious, it shows a game force with clubs. The player holding the weak hand passed, because he was guessing that what partner might call a game force with clubs, given the competitive nature of the auction, might not be totally game forcing. You have UI from the second auction that partner is in fact seriously strong.

 

The second one was the auction as it happened at our table; I had the strong hand.

 

I don't agree with this: "Clubs and a major doesn't make sense because partner would bid his major over the double with that." because the hand opposite was (given the cramped nature of the auction) deemed to be a slam forcing hand. You might think that pass-then-5♥ should be forcing with clubs & hearts, but I didn't want to try that out at the table, when there are two alternative meanings (either a very strong heart single-suiter, or a strong but not forcing club/heart 2-suiter).

 

I agree that (i) pass-then-4M should show a 2-suiter (that's actually written in our system file, although I'm not certain South has read & agreed that bit), and (ii) a cue bid shows the majors. For the immediate 4NT I agree with those posters who think it should be natural, although likely based on clubs. OK, you know that partner doesn't have that hand because of your diamond length, but that doesn't change what it should mean.

 

So I thought that pass-then-4NT must be a 2-suiter, clubs and a major. My partner wasn't totally certain, and thought it might be a good 5C bid for the reasons JLOGIC describes.

 

I think now I should have bid 5NT over 4D, which must be a two-suiter. I was hoping to think of some way of distinguishing between clubs & hearts and clubs & spades, but I can't see anything that is obvious/intuitive, and I doubt we're going to have this problem again in the next 10000 boards.

 

FWIW partner has AK AKQ9x x AKQ9x, raises your 5C bid to 6C and scores +1370.

[phil_20686]

FWIW partner has AK AKQ9x x AKQ9x, raises your 5C bid to 6C and scores +1370.

 

The table I was watching failed to get to game on this hand after they floated 4C. :S

 

(Its a hand from the camrose for those who didnt know)