2nd round decision

[jallerton]

[hv=pc=n&e=s93hqtdkjtckjt765&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=3ddp3npp4d]133|200[/hv]

 

You are East.

 

IMPs, favourable vulnerability.

 

What do you do now?

[the hog]

Double.

[aguahombre]

Double. Did partner squirm before passing my 3NT because of his void, suggesting some other L.A., like pass or 5C?

 

I am locked in to double if that was the case, but am happy with the double anyway.

[JLOGIC]

Are you guys serious with double? I guess you have a trick! RHO likely has 3 diamonds and a stiff club and thus didn't bid over the X in case we were going to play majors, and didn't double 3N since he guessed we had lots of club tricks.

 

I view my options as pass or 4N. I would pass but I would have bid 3N with Kxx xx Kxx QJxxx and the like so I don't have to have this much playing strength.

 

BTW I think partner should figure out that he can pull 4N to 5C with (54)04 and a weakish hand since I must have this hand type for it. The more I think about it the more I like 4N since that is likely partners hand type. On the other hand he is probably going to balance with 4M most of the time with that so pass should be fine.

[flytoox]

I like 4N.

[y66]

4N feels right to me. I see now why pass makes sense but that would not have occurred to me at the table.

[mikeh]

I'm not sure that I can trust partner to pull to 5♣..besides, I think that we are far more likely to make 5♣ than 4N, no matter what partner holds. On a diamond lead, we need to run the first 10 tricks...if N gets in before we do so, we lose the rest of the tricks. I'm bidding 5♣. I agree that double seems crazy.....my guess is that N is something like 5431/4531. If I could trust partner, I'd be a lot happier with 4N

[phil_20686]

Just feels like a pass to me. I wasnt that sure I was making 3N.

 

I have a ten count, a fair proportion of which is in their suit, and it looks like partner is very shape suitable for his double. Could I not just be hanging him good and proper by doubling 4d, or even by bidding 5c?

 

Partner can still double 4d if he has extras, and now I am happy to bid 4n/5c, or even to pass 4dx, but if partner just has some typical 4414 12 count or so, am I really even close to making 5c?

 

Axxx

Axxx

x

Axxx

 

Is a giant hand (in the context of hands that would pass 4d out), and 5c still needs some work, ruff two diamonds bring the trumps in and have to pitch a spade on a heart winner.

 

If partner is shape suitable and 15+ I would expect him to double 4d when it comes round to him, since I have bid 3N, maybe even less than that if hard values and extreme shape. like 4405.

[phil_20686]

PS: Also upvote kudos for finding a poll question on which none of phil, mikeh, frances and jlall agree with each other. Now we just need gnasher in for a double to complete the set.

[Finch]

PS: Also upvote kudos for finding a poll question on which none of phil, mikeh, frances and jlall agree with each other. Now we just need gnasher in for a double to complete the set.

 

I voted other because I know the hand, so I thought I shouldn't vote, but I wanted to see what the voting indicated.

[WellSpyder]

I voted other because I know the hand, so I thought I shouldn't vote, but I wanted to see what the voting indicated.

I was wondering what alternative you might have in mind and why you were keeping us in suspense! You can always click on "show results", which will show you what the votes look like without registering a vote of your own.

[aguahombre]

I voted other because I know the hand, so I thought I shouldn't vote, but I wanted to see what the voting indicated.

Darn, and I thought your vote was intended as humor, since there aren't any other possibilities.

[gnasher]

I'd make a forcing pass. If partner doubles, I hope that will mean he has a trump to lead.

[Finch]

I'd make a forcing pass. If partner doubles, I hope that will mean he has a trump to lead.

 

That's interesting, I don't think pass is forcing.

[aguahombre]

I'd make a forcing pass. If partner doubles, I hope that will mean he has a trump to lead.

Certainly forcing pass is a reasonable choice here, but at these colors are we really sure it is forcing? Or does it merely show that my 3NT advance the first time was a least-of- evils bid ---and/or doubt?

[gnasher]

That's interesting, I don't think pass is forcing.

 

Doesn't this fall into the category "When they wait for us to bid game, and then save"?

[quiddity]

I don't think it should be forcing either, and if it were forcing I wouldn't pass. If partner is going to double with a random piece of crap because pass is forcing then I wouldn't feel comfortable sitting for it - if the colors were reversed then I would bid 4N or 5C instead.

 

I don't think this is like "we bid game on power and then they saved". Partner was under pressure to double with shortness, we were under pressure to bid 3N on any excuse, and the r/w opps are not going to be out on a limb.

[nigel_k]

I voted pass, thinking it is not forcing.

 

My view is that there are two rules in play here:

 

1. We have announced the high card values for game. Not the case here as the 3NT bidder has to do something and may not be especially strong.

 

2. They are obviously sacrificing. Also not the case as RHO was never in a position where his pass might end the auction, so could have anything.

[MrAce]

Doesn't this fall into the category "When they wait for us to bid game, and then save"?

 

No imo. Vulnerability says otherwise.

 

To me this pass is not forcing.

 

Anyway i suspect they are either making or close to making this 4♦, at least we know that the guy who bid 4♦ believes that they go down at most 1 with whatever he sees in his hand.

 

Pd has perfect shape for his DBL, thus he may not have too many beans neccesarilly. I would never bid 4 NT tho without an ace. 4NT needs to catch pd with 3 aces, or 2 aces + 3 quick tricks in the major suit that we have an ace. I agree with MikeH that most of the hands that makes 4NT will also make 5♣, but not vice versa.

 

I think i would bid 5♣

[JLOGIC]

Doesn't this fall into the category "When they wait for us to bid game, and then save"?

 

No imo. Funny, I had almost exactly this argument irl recently, to me pass then 4D is not them waiting when their pass was over a forcing bid and especially a double. The reason is obviously that they could manipulate/exploit us by passing and then bidding, and this manipulation would be free. So basically I think them "waiting" is not a piece of info that should be used.

 

Now, you could argue that that is theoretical and people don't do that irl, however RHO need not be walking the dog with his auction, he rates to have length in both majors and perhaps was waiting to see whether we'd end in 3 or 4 of a major so he could double before raising to a non game level. I think this can happen irl with no intent on exploiting this exact situation. And it makes sense when we have our actual hand, long clubs, that RHO was scared we'd make on the club suit, and perhaps on aces, with a hand like KQJxx AQTx xxx x or something of that nature (if this is a bit too strong, change it a little).

 

Also, I feel like playing forcing passes when they are red/white, neither of our side has promised that much (double could be as low as 10 or 11, 3N could be as low as 7 or 8), it violates (my?) common sense to play pass as forcing. I know I have written this before but I think making the agreement to not play forcing passes w/r makes a lot of sense, and I have played that way...maybe sometimes it doesn't but I do think it's better than "normal" forcing pass rules.

[Fluffy]

This needs a lot of table feeling, I mean, against 80%+ players I know by the name I would double because they just suck.

[jallerton]

This needs a lot of table feeling, I mean, against 80%+ players I know by the name I would double because they just suck.

 

When this occurred at the table, the opponents were a pair of Welsh internationals.

[MrAce]

Doesn't this fall into the category "When they wait for us to bid game, and then save"?

 

 

Also, even if we agree for the sake of argument that pass is forcing, then why would you pass ? Are you planning to pass if pd bids 4M ? Because if not then u will be representing a huge hand which u dont have, no ?

[JLOGIC]

Also, even if we agree for the sake of argument that pass is forcing, then why would you pass ? Are you planning to pass if pd bids 4M ? Because if not then u will be representing a huge hand which u dont have, no ?

 

No, you would be representing a hand that would have sat for a double, but wants to bid over a hand that would not double.

[jallerton]

Also, I feel like playing forcing passes when they are red/white, neither of our side has promised that much (double could be as low as 10 or 11, 3N could be as low as 7 or 8), it violates (my?) common sense to play pass as forcing. I know I have written this before but I think making the agreement to not play forcing passes w/r makes a lot of sense, and I have played that way...maybe sometimes it doesn't but I do think it's better than "normal" forcing pass rules.

 

It's an interesting idea to agree that forcing passes never apply at this vulnerability. However, your other point is clearly correct. There's no reason to suppose that we would have bid above 1NT in an uncontested auction, so why should it necessarily be our hand? East/West were under a lot of pressure after the pre-empt. 3NT may have been the best call available to East on the previous round, but that does not necessarily mean that East expected to make it! Drifting a couple off in 3NT, even if doubled, scores better than 3♦x making.