3 card raises

[dboxley]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj9hqj62da5cqj84&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1cp1sp]133|200[/hv]

I think this hand really belongs in the novice/intermediate forum but my partner wanted me to post it here so that we would get responses only from 'good' players. I know that many of you will say "It depends on our agreements." My real question is "What do you think most expert 2/1 partnerships play?"

 

1. Never raise on 3

2. Always on 3

3. Depends on the hand

 

I am firm option 3 follower and I think most experts are but that remains to be seen. The next question is "What is your rebid here?" BTW we play 'up the line', normally responding in a 4 card diamond suit before a 4 card major.

[helene_t]

I think this is a good hand for a 3-card raise since a notrump contract is likely to play better in partner's hand. This is especially true if we don't play Walsh so that we "know" that diamonds is our weakest spot. I would not raise if my diamonds were Kx or Jxx. With xx I would certainly do it. This hand is borderline, as would it be with xxx or Qx of diamonds.

 

But if I haven't discussed how responder can ask for the degree of fit, I try to avoid 3-card raises. Of course I still raise when there really is no alternative. For example KQx-AKxx-x-Jxxxx.

 

Anyway, I think "everyone" would answer option 3.

[bluecalm]

Depends on agreement and place in the world.

Some people routinely raise with 3. Some almost never (like Meckwell and Polish pairs). Some only with 5card minor suit (like Italian pairs, it seems to me).

From what I read on this forums I would guess that "American Expert Standard" is to raise with 3 quite often but it's a wild guess.

 

The hand in question is imo clearcut 1NT. although I like Helene_t point about Walsh, I haven't thought about it.

Still, you need good system after raise to 2S if it's routinely with 3cards and if you start including 4-4-3-2's there it's difficult to handle imo.

 

If you are looking for advice, mine is: never raise with 3 without 5card minor, that way you will be in world class company and avoid disasters which may easily occur from 3card raises.

[gwnn]

Option 3. Clear no on this hand for me. I agree with bluecalm's reasons, but I don't really think there can be disasters from raising on 3 cards.

[hrothgar]

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

 

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

 

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.

I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

[jschafer]

It seems likely you will either have an 8-card ♠ fit or a ♦ weakness on this hand, perhaps both. So I quite like the idea of raising ♠s on this hand because ♠ rates to do well either way. Bidding 2♠ also makes it more likely partner will invite with borderline hands since he 'knows' about our ♠ fit, which is a good thing given that this hand is a maximum.

[bluecalm]

I checked my database and I was wrong about Italians. While almost all 3card raises are with 5m, there are some 4-4-3-2, for example this one:

QT6 KQT5 43 AQ74 from Versace, which is exactly what Helene_t described (LV don't play Walsh).

 

Some other examples:

T94 9743 A7 AKQ6

A87 K973 AQT3 95

AK4 AK98 9863 42

QT2 A762 KQJ4 72

 

All from Lauria-Versace

 

As to disasters I think, slam bidding is crippled if you don't very detailed agreements in this spot and might result in ridiculous contracts. I will search my db later to find some examples from real experts :)

 

Btw, if you raise with 3, then:

 

1m - 1M

2M - 3m should promise 5card major.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1NT.

 

If you regular raise with 3 cards and a bal. shape,

you need to have trial bids in place as follow up to

help you to find out, if you have a 8 card fir or not.

 

The majority of 2/1 players would most likely bid 1NT

with the given hand, but raising is certainly a popular

option, at the number of peoble doing this is growing.

 

I will do raising with a 5431 shape.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[dboxley]

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

 

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

 

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.

I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

 

Actually, good opponents tend to lead diamonds on this auction precisely because we play up the line.

[dboxley]

Depends on agreement and place in the world.

Some people routinely raise with 3. Some almost never (like Meckwell and Polish pairs). Some only with 5card minor suit (like Italian pairs, it seems to me).

From what I read on this forums I would guess that "American Expert Standard" is to raise with 3 quite often but it's a wild guess.

 

The hand in question is imo clearcut 1NT. although I like Helene_t point about Walsh, I haven't thought about it.

Still, you need good system after raise to 2S if it's routinely with 3cards and if you start including 4-4-3-2's there it's difficult to handle imo.

 

If you are looking for advice, mine is: never raise with 3 without 5card minor, that way you will be in world class company and avoid disasters which may easily occur from 3card raises.

 

I wasn't really looking for advice but your point of view is certainly welcome. I have never had a disaster raising with 3 but the followups are important and there is no substitute for common sense.

[wank]

i raise on 3 with unbalanced hands.

 

with balanced hands i normally rebid 1nt and wait for p to checkback, unless it's particularly rich in As/Ks which are suit cards. In england at least this is a fairly normal style among better players and people play 2M+1 as a shape relay.

[pooltuna]

option 3 but no problem here so 1NT

[awm]

With 3-card support and a side Singleton there is a strong expert consensus to raise. Apparently there are still a few who wouldn't (mostly in Poland it seems) but they are a small minority.

 

Raising on three with a balanced hand is more controversial. I doubt there are experts who will "always raise" barring some agreement that 1M showed five but otherwise the approaches range from "never" to "only with xx or Ax on the side" to "almost any non-4333."

[wyman]

option 3 and 1N for me on this collection. I'm in the "only when I have to" camp of option 3, which means when I have a 5431 typically.

[MrAce]

This is % 100 1 NT rebid for me.

[phil_20686]

I generally raise only on unbalanced three card support.

 

Supposing that I did raise on balanced 3 card support; then I do think an important issue has been overlooked: Partner is much more likely to make an aggressive game try after a 2S raise than after a 1N rebid. If you are ashamed of your opener you should tend towards 1N, if your hand is maximal tend towards 2S. This hand is a max in tihs context, and imo that is a good reason to bid 2S at teams.

 

At MP i bid 1N because I am balanced, and also because its likely the contract in the wk nt fields that I play in.

[Phil]

Honor-doubleton, 4432, slow cards. I even have a tenace and a semi-tenace.

 

Whats not to like about 1N?

[gszes]

number 3

 

this hand 1n

 

I prefer to raise with (reasonable) 3 card support

when I have a major problem with 1n.

If my hand were say

 

KJ9 QJxx xx AQJx

 

I would bid 2s since I have a fairly

serious concern about dia and the 2s

might make it harder for the opps to

find their dia fit if p is min.

 

I would also bis 2s with the more

distributional hands shown by others.

 

The downside of the 2s bid is that we

might be closing out the heart suit and

playing in an anti-field 53 fit vs

44 in hearts I prefer to raise with

3 card support sparingly for that reason

alone.

[MickyB]

i raise on 3 with unbalanced hands.

 

with balanced hands i normally rebid 1nt and wait for p to checkback, unless it's particularly rich in As/Ks which are suit cards. In London at least this is a fairly normal style among better players and people play 2M+1 as a shape relay.

 

FYP. The best Manchester players tend to raise on three cards a lot, although that's probably due to 4cM/strong NT influences.

 

Playing 2/1, I raise on three cards in a balanced hand only when I have a low doubleton.

[the hog]

I prefer styles in which opener has the option to raise to 2M with three card support and do so fairly frequently.

 

With this hand, I prefer a 1NT rebid.

 

The hand is quacky. I have lots of slow tricks rather than Aces and Kings.

I have a four card heart suit which will help alot if the opponents decide to lead the unbid major versus NT. (Reverse the holdings in the red suits and I would probably prefer to bid two spades)

 

I agree with Richard. This hand is a NT rebid. With xx in Ds I would raise to 2M.

[dboxley]

It seems that the consensus is to rebid 1NT. I don't like it but I'm not adamant about it. It seems that everyone voting for 1NT considered cases where responder will make a further bid instead of cases where responder will pass either rebid. My position is:

 

1) If responder has enough to make a game try then you should be able to sort it out.

 

2) If responder doesn't have enough to make a game try, which contract will more likely be the best spot? (more likely to make or go down less, more likely to get the opponents back in when you want them in or less likely when you don't want them in, etc.)

2a) 2S definitely works best if pd has 5 spades

2b) 2S works best when you have a diamond problem and maybe just as well when you don't

2c) 2S makes them balance at the 3 level

2d) 1NT let's them balance at the 2 level which may or may not be good for you

 

Any comments?

[gwnn]

It seems that everyone voting for 1NT considered cases where responder will make a further bid instead of cases where responder will pass either rebid.

Who exactly? Most posters just said which are the most important factors why they consider this a 1NT rebid (quacky, Qx, etc). But phil's point that partner will sometimes take us to 3♠ (and we go down) when he'd pass 1NT is also good - there are no hands that'd pass 2S but bid on over 1NT but there are plenty vice versa. I agree with you that the most important question is how well will 1NT play vs how well 2S will play. I guess we disagree with the answer to that question.

[gnasher]

With 3-card support and a side Singleton there is a strong expert consensus to raise. Apparently there are still a few who wouldn't (mostly in Poland it seems) but they are a small minority.

I don't think that's a fair summary. So far as I know, it's still a capital crime to raise on three-card support in France, for example. And Poland alone has rather a lot of experts.

[Zelandakh]

It seems that the consensus is to rebid 1NT. I don't like it but I'm not adamant about it. It seems that everyone voting for 1NT considered cases where responder will make a further bid instead of cases where responder will pass either rebid. My position is:

 

I think most posters are considering which bid they feel will give them the best overall results, taking into account every hand opposite according to the relative frequencies. For what it is worth I used to raise on 3 card support quite a lot but do so much less now. I think the given hand is a clear 1NT and it is not at all close.

[phil_20686]

Any comments?

 

Yes, you should also consider the field action when playing MP. Raising on 3 cards on hands where it is not the room action essentially gives up your edge in the card play, so the contract needs to play enough better to cancel out your edge playing in 1N and scoring up against the room. Obviously this is a non event in teams.

 

If I am playing in a poor field where I expect many players to play in 1N, I am giving up a 60-70% board if I don't also play in 1N. So I need really very large equity in the decision to raise to 2S before its right. Playing in a strong field where many will consider a 3 card raise I have lots of protection, and should do what I think best, but its fairly rare (in my experience) to have a MP field strong enough that declarering hands in normal contracts is not a route to a good score.