Lavinthal Discards

[Flame]

With odd/even discard, there are lots of ethical problems.

What do you mean ? can you give an example ?

This is because not every time you will have both odd/even cards to discard. For example, if you got only odd cards, but playing any odd cards would convey prefernce or encouragement info. according to your agreement, then playing an odd card slowly will show some extra information.

I just read about this in stevenson forum, he explained that its ok on discard but not on partners lead.

I understand this but i really dont like it, the etical problems is imo just a matter of time , today people dont know what to do when they lack the o/e they need for the signal, but they have enough knolege to know what to do when they dont cant spare a high card to signal encarage, when i played o/e it was simple, just like in std you can line from dis to enc 2345678910, you can line fro dis to enc when playing o/e : 2468109753. just like when playing std if i play the 7 partner will not automaticly think its high, he will look at the spots in his hand , dummy, and declarer card, if he see 234581042 he will have to judge wather i was inc from 67 or dis from 710

same here, if i play 8 and partner see the the 35710, he

will have to think wather im dis from 89 or im enc 86.

The false carding art by declarer also works the same way.

btw in israel o/e is allowed and never heard of any problem with it.

[bearmum]

With odd/even discard, there are lots of ethical problems.

I think you are confusing this with the issue of odd/even signals. It is fairly common to think before a discard, whatever methods you play.

I agree is OK to think - BUT surely one OUGHT to THINK LONG AND HARD before u play to FIRST trick ( Or second if you are the opening leader) and WORK oput WHAT your FIRST discard is going to be [OK I am supposing playing Lav discards as my 'senior' brain can't really understand o/e] but a L O N G think before first discard MIGHT be construed as UI -----------

 

NOW suppose you have a really good connection - and want to THINK - then COUNT 5 sec before making ANY bid - then NP

[Free]

So what if I have to THINK more than 5 seconds? Then again everyone will know that at that point, I was actually THINKING, not counting seconds. Opps will find you're a slow player, etc. And all this so your partner would not know what you are thinking about exactly? Come on!

 

This UI stuff is REALLY getting OUT OF HAND! Sure, some will probably use it, but certainly not online. If they want to signal online with cheats, they'll use their MSN messenger, or skype (to talk) or something, NOT thinking pauses. And at the table, it won't matter anyway...

[EarlPurple]

Simple: defenders have to think first.

 

Let me make a couple of points: Whenever you signal you show the situation not only to your partner, but also to the declarer. And declarer can intercept these signals and a good one (not even necessarily an expert one) will. I certainly know I do. Have made lots of tops at MP by taking lots of "good views" except they weren't really views at all - the defence had nicely signalled to me where all the cards were. And it's helped at IMPs too, of course.

 

Not every card you play in defence has to be a signal. And not every discard, or even the first one, has to be a signal, whether it be suit preference or count or otherwise.

 

There are some hands on which partner will defend better if he knows which cards you hold or your suit lengths, but there are many where he doesn't need this information but declarer does.

 

Now, having said all that, there are also many occasions where you do want to signal. A signal can either be help for partner (helping partner know what you have to make an informed decision) or a command to partner (I want you to lead a diamond, now!). Not saying that either approach is right or wrong all the time - many would say that a signal should just show partner a holding, but there are occasions when you simply want partner to lead a diamond now, not because you have anything in the suit, but because you know his other choice, a heart, would be wrong. i.e. you know the situation better than partner does.

 

Someone above suggested odd/even against suits but Lavinthal against NT. The logic behind this is that in NT you often don't want to discard anything from your long suit, as you want to make all the tricks in it, but against a suit you hope to make a couple of tricks at most from the suit.

 

My own experience is that the suit-preference signal comes into its own early in the play, when declarer is drawing trumps or setting up his long suit in NT, and one player has a winner in the suit while the other is short. When the defender with the winner in the suit gets in, he needs to know what to lead. I think, in this situation, Lavinthal usually works better - you can almost always find a card to show it. (Not the case with odd/even).

 

Later in the play, when you are trying to show each other what suits you are holding on to, firstly you should consider count-showing discards. But odd-even may well work better here than Lavinthal, because you will often want to throw from the suit where you have length values and want to show partner you have it under control.

 

You should consider though playing revolving Lavinthal. This method always allows you to throw a low card, even when you want a spade.

It works as follows: the 3 remaining suits go round in a circle, and a low discard shows preference for the suit immediately below, while a high discard shows preference for the suit immediately above. So when discarding on hearts, a diamond discard would be as with regular Lavinthal - low for a club, high for a spade. But a club discard or a spade discard would be the reverse. A low club asks for a spade (the suit immediately "below" clubs, while a high spade asks for a club (the suit immediately "above" spades).

[bearmum]

So what if I have to THINK more than 5 seconds?  Then again everyone will know that at that point, I was actually THINKING, not counting seconds.  Opps will find you're a slow player, etc.  And all this so your partner would not know what you are thinking about exactly?  Come on!

 

This UI stuff is REALLY getting OUT OF HAND!  Sure, some will probably use it, but certainly not online.  If they want to signal online with cheats, they'll use their MSN messenger, or skype (to talk) or something, NOT thinking pauses.  And at the table, it won't matter anyway...

Sorry Free - I was also thinking of the problems with L O N G thinking of first discard (or maybre - cover or not cover an honour etc) in f2f play as well as online (where connection time CAN be a problem and NOT attempt to give UI at all) I also agree that the whole UI thing (especially online) has got totally out of hand -- to my way of thinking MOST online players play for the love of the game -- and don't cheat cos what's the satisfaction of winning IF you have to cheat???

 

My response was meant to say I TRY (if defending ) to LOOK at dummy , my hand and review bidding --- and BEFORE I play ANY card (unless Im on lead ;)) try to work out APPROX how I hope to play the cards I have -- ie what's my first discard going to be -------- do I cover honour on table if led so that hopefully I can play IN TEMPO

 

All this came about because many years ago ( at one of the first times we played in a fairly BIG congress ) playing in a team match the opps tried to suggest that I was cheating by not playing in tempo (not nice) threating to call the director - to which suggestion my partner called DIRECTOR PLEASE!!

 

Now the opps (I found out later were well known for trying to upset opps by this type of tactics) but the director had to ask me to attempt to play in tempo - and I said OK I will count 5 sec before making ANY bid or play :D --- and THAT drove opps mad (AND we won the match) BTW -- I have NEVER done anything like that since as I pretty well supposed opps WOULD be distracted, but figured in this case they deserved it :ph34r:

[Free]

My response was meant to say I TRY (if defending ) to LOOK at dummy , my hand and review bidding --- and BEFORE I play ANY card  (unless Im on lead  :D)  try to work out APPROX how I hope to play the cards I have -- ie what's my first discard going to be -------- do I cover honour on table if led so that hopefully I can play IN TEMPO

This is a really good start of every hand! In fact, it's the best way to defend imo, since you won't have to think whenever any card is played. You're prepared! Same goes for when declarer has a long suit he's running. Think ahead how many discards you'll need, and you won't get into trouble that often anymore :)

 

Btw, no need to appologize :)