When a pair psyches too much

[Fluffy]

There is a pair in my country who make 3-6 openings in third position with less than 8 HCP even on balanced hands per tournament (3 sessions).

 

There are some 2-3 records already, but I wonder if they are enough to probe that they do it this often, random opponents don´t call director after the psyche and some won´t even notice something went wrong.

 

I heard one of the players of the pair had been banned from play in 2 countries, so probably they do things worse than this. I don´t like to compete against unfair opposition.

 

What is the correct procedure for this?, note that in my country, having an agreement that lets you open with less than 10 HCP at the 1 level is strictly forbidden, so if they do have an agreement their system should be forbidden, but then what?

 

EDIT: I meant 3-6 openings in third positon per 3 session tournament.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Fluffy

[mgoetze]

Well if your country is going to write a regulation forbidding something it should also write what the consequences are if you do it anyway.

 

The German regulations deal with this case, I don't remember exactly but IIRC if they were determined to be playing an illegal 3rd seat opening then they would get at best AVE- on every board they opened in 3rd seat the entire tournament.

[nigel_k]

If it has reached the level of being an implicit agreement then they have to tell the opponents, or if that agreement is illegal they have to stop doing it.

 

But as far as I know, there isn't any objective test for when this kind of thing becomes an implicit agreement. I'm not even sure there is a subjective test that can be expressed in a sentence or two. It is basically at the discretion of the sponsoring organization to decide, based on any criteria they choose, whether there is an agreement or whether they just psyche more often than other people.

 

But in my opinion, 2-3 cases are not enough to take any action.

[hrothgar]

If it wee me, I would simply "be prepared" in case we played against said pair.

 

Make sure that you have written copies of the appropriate recorder forms (or easy access to them online)

If the pair in question ever shades a third seat opening call the director, state that the pair is

 

1. Playing an illegal convention

2. Failing to disclose their partnership agreements

 

Then present you evidence.

[Zelandakh]

The German regulations deal with this case, I don't remember exactly but IIRC if they were determined to be playing an illegal 3rd seat opening then they would get at best AVE- on every board they opened in 3rd seat the entire tournament.

The German regulations also forbid more than one psyche per session. I find such regulations, as well as the (10hcp) Spanish one Fluffy quotes, to be something akin to "anti-bridge". Opening light in third seat is just bridge. It should be legal and disclosed. Just one example, is there anyone who would not open in third seat with AKQxx in a major and out? In Germany, any opening with this hand is automatically a psyche (at least that's what they have told me, I could not find it in the regs with my poor German). I personally find this quite ridiculous. Fluffy, can you open this hand 2M in Spain or are your regulations equally as silly?

 

As for the pair in question, I think you should ask them directly on the first third seat opening how often it contains less than 10 hcp. If they admit it is common then you have direct evidence of a partnership agreement; if they say very rarely then this should constitute MI in combination with your other evidence if they have psyched it. Sort of like a Morton's Fork for Secretary Birds.

[mgoetze]

Oh sure, I certainly agree that the German regulations are stupid and we are not the only ones to think so. The point I'm making is that a regulation which doesn't even specify what happens when someone breaks it is even more stupid. ;)

[iviehoff]

The German regulations also forbid more than one psyche per session. ... Opening light in third seat is just bridge. It should be legal and disclosed. Just one example, is there anyone who would not open in third seat with AKQxx in a major and out?

I agree that a regulation of at most one psyche per session is inconsistent with the Laws. Although if they meant a psyche of a particular type, eg, 3rd hand openings, I have some sympathy. If someone got disciplined for two psyches of quite different types, eg a control bid and an overcall, that would be ridiculous.

 

What you say following that is just wrong. Your statement indicates that you have an agreement that a third hand opening is 9+ with a good 5-cd suit. Such an agreement must be disclosed. If it is not a permitted agreement in a particular place, then you are playing an illegal agreement and may not do it, and that is quite a legal regulation. I wouldn't routinely open with the hand you mention, and I would not consider it in any way normal to do so. There's a reason for that, it is an illegal agreement in England* too, at nearly all levels of competition. I suspect your belief that this is "just bridge" is in fact an observation of player habits and styles that vary from place to place. Such light openings are simply not in the culture in many places.

 

*In England, the minimum standard you can agree to open at the 1-level, for competitions at Levels 2, 3 and 4, which covers the vast majority of competition, is "Rule of 19", calculated as HCP plus the number of cards in your two longest suits. The hand you describe is "Rule of 17" for 5-3-3-2 and "Rule of 18" for 5-4-x-y. Only if the distribution is at least 5-5 can you agree to open this hand at the 1-level in England.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Bridge is a sport that tries to follow a high standard of ethical conduct.

 

If the regulation of the contest forbid opening 1S with AKQxx and out, white vs. red

in 3rd seat more than once, and you have the unfortunate luck to get dealt this hand type

in the tournament more than once in 3rd seat, and you always open 1S, than this is

"Anti Bridge" as well, because you say, the ethical conduct rules of the game are of

no relevance.

 

My impression is, that lots of peoble believe this is a lot lesser evil than playing "Anti Bridge"

by passing those hands. I beg to differ.

 

You always have the choice to stop playing those tournaments, that have this rule in

place, it may mean in the end, that you stop playing tournaments in a given country,

but you have the chance.

But if you playm, you better adhere to the conduct rules.

 

And you also have the option to figth for changing the rules, which may take time.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: On a side note - In Germany you can always open this hand with 2S.

[Zelandakh]

I agree that a regulation of at most one psyche per session is inconsistent with the Laws. Although if they meant a psyche of a particular type, eg, 3rd hand openings, I have some sympathy. If someone got disciplined for two psyches of quite different types, eg a control bid and an overcall, that would be ridiculous.

The rule is one psyche of any type per tournament, or per session of a multi-round tournament.

 

 

What you say following that is just wrong.

<snip>

I never said I opened the hand at the 1 level, only that any opening would be regarded as a psyche. I actually opened a weak 2M at green. The Director allowed this as my one psyche for the evening since it was third seat and warned me that opening a weak 2 with a 5 card suit was verboten in Germany (even as a psyche). I am afraid I do not remember the rest of the hand although I may well have had a singleton in the other major.

[P_Marlowe]

The rule is one psyche of any type per tournament, or per session of a multi-round tournament.

 

 

 

I never said I opened the hand at the 1 level, only that any opening would be regarded as a psyche. I actually opened a weak 2M at green. The Director allowed this as my one psyche for the evening since it was third seat and warned me that opening a weak 2 with a 5 card suit was verboten in Germany (even as a psyche). I am afraid I do not remember the rest of the hand although I may well have had a singleton in the other major.

This used to be the old "C" category,for contests following the guidlines for category "B", this was never relevant,

"B" got renamed "C" 3-4 years ago.

Of course a club may have its own regulations, and if you are new, and the club followes

"HOME" rules, they should inform you at the begin of the tournament.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

This used to be the old "C" category,for contests following the guidlines for category "B", this was never relevant,

"B" got renamed "C" 3-4 years ago.

Of course a club may have its own regulations, and if you are new, and the club followes

"HOME" rules, they should inform you at the begin of the tournament.

 

The 2M case above was before the change although noone seems to care about the new rules round here anyway. I had parts of the old rules given to me (or actually my partner since she speaks better German) as current not very long ago on an informal request. The one psyche rule is still in the most current rules document on the DBV website so I assume this is still in force. I was definitely barred from psyching for the day after I made one a few of months ago.

[Fluffy]

Just one example, is there anyone who would not open in third seat with AKQxx in a major and out? In Germany, any opening with this hand is automatically a psyche (at least that's what they have told me, I could not find it in the regs with my poor German). I personally find this quite ridiculous. Fluffy, can you open this hand 2M in Spain or are your regulations equally as silly?

 

Somebody opened against me 1♠ with 6 HCP with 6-6 blacks, we got a bottom due to that but all we had to do is man up and live with it. Opening routinely with AKQxx and out with 1M would be banned as far as I know. But you won´t find enough evidence for it to be considered normal and the directors here apply judgement (Even if they shouldn´t and if theirs is generally a bad one, but they do). But the players in question do nor open AKQxx, they open 4432 with 2 kings and out. This is different.

 

I also find ridicoulous that AKQxxxxx might be opened 2♣ but not 1M

[blackshoe]

Sounds to me like the German regulations are crazy.

[Cyberyeti]

Sounds to me like the German regulations are crazy.

I don't think they'd see the funny side of our systemic 4 card weak 2s either :)

[VixTD]

*In England, the minimum standard you can agree to open at the 1-level, for competitions at Levels 2, 3 and 4, which covers the vast majority of competition, is "Rule of 19", calculated as HCP plus the number of cards in your two longest suits. The hand you describe is "Rule of 17" for 5-3-3-2 and "Rule of 18" for 5-4-x-y. Only if the distribution is at least 5-5 can you agree to open this hand at the 1-level in England.

Rule-of-19 is the minimum standard at level 2 in all positions; at levels 3 and above the minimum is rule-of-18 in 1st and 2nd seat (so long as the hand has at least 8 hcp), or 8+ hcp without reference to suit lengths in 3rd and 4th seat (OB11C9 and 10).

[mgoetze]

Personally I've never heard of a one-psyche-per-day restricition so I'd appreciate it if Zel could cite the regulation he has in mind.

[CSGibson]

Sounds to me like the German regulations are crazy.

 

 

Yeah, it's like they purposely set out to make the ACBL look non-restrictive and generous in comparison...

 

The truth is out there.

[P_Marlowe]

Sounds to me like the German regulations are crazy.

Not going to defend the German regulation, but the cited rule did

basically apply only for games played in clubs.

If you played a regional tournament or league game, the cited rule

was not relevant.

 

Most of the complains came from peoble, who wantd to play their pet

gadgets, allowed at normal tournaments, in all clubs, without

the need to bother to ask "Do you have home rules?", the club

home rules usually defaulted to category "C".

Clubs were free to say, we use the regulations, which are in place

in regional tournaments, they could also say, no - we play the more

restrictive rules, or our own.

 

My point of view - if you visit a club, you are a guest, and you respect

the owners of the house.

For us, this was never a problem, we adjusted our style depending on the

enviroment we played.

And if we did not like the enviroement, we stopped playing there.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Personally I've never heard of a one-psyche-per-day restricition so I'd appreciate it if Zel could cite the regulation he has in mind.

TO § 16: you can make the same psych at most twice in the same section.

 

The reason behind this rule is a good one, if you psych once or twice, it

is hard to argue, that this is an implicit agreement.

If you psych more than twice in the same set of 30 boards, hoping to get

away with th claim, that this is just Bridge / a surprising psych, you are

obviously not telling the truth, you will take the psych possibility into

account.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[blackshoe]

TO § 16: you can make the same psych at most twice in the same section.

 

The reason behind this rule is a good one, if you psych once or twice, it

is hard to argue, that this is an implicit agreement.

If you psych more than twice in the same set of 30 boards, hoping to get

away with th claim, that this is just Bridge / a surprising psych, you are

obviously not telling the truth, you will take the psych possibility into

account.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

Obviously not telling the truth? Well, I don't know about that. The hands on which psychs are appropriate are rare, true. That doesn't mean that two such hands cannot come up in the same session. It would certainly be surprising, but it's not impossible. It's quite likely to be two different psychs, as well.

[P_Marlowe]

Obviously not telling the truth? Well, I don't know about that. The hands on which psychs are appropriate are rare, true. That doesn't mean that two such hands cannot come up in the same session. It would certainly be surprising, but it's not impossible. It's quite likely to be two different psychs, as well.

Most likely you are right.

What I stated was very shorted, ..., I just mentioned the section of the

sentence, that gave a number.

There is also a part, which refers to frequent psychs in the same session,

whatever frequent means.

I am not a certified TD, I just direct tournaments on club level, and my

training was a long time ago, I need a refresher.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[barmar]

Obviously not telling the truth? Well, I don't know about that. The hands on which psychs are appropriate are rare, true. That doesn't mean that two such hands cannot come up in the same session. It would certainly be surprising, but it's not impossible. It's quite likely to be two different psychs, as well.

The quote says "at most twice". So the probability we're interested in is three times in a session. While nothing is impossible, this seems to be close enough.

 

And the regulation specifically says "the same psych". So you're presumably OK if you psyche two 1-suit openings and a 1NT.

[P_Marlowe]

For those, who can read German

http://www.bridge-verband.de/regelseite/doku.php?id=regelseite:to_16

[Asoroth]

Sounds to me like the German regulations are crazy.

They aren't, but I can understand you thinking so after what has been posted here - but that's just not right for the most part.

 

It is perfectly ok to psyche more often than once in germany, even in the same session and even it is the same psyche. All §16 TO says that doing so creates an implicit partnership understanding, so if the situation occurs again your partner should alert and disclose both the meaning of the bid according to system AND that you have psyched in that situation more than once. Personally I think that is quite reasonable.

 

And contrary to what has been written here, it is perfectly fine to open 1♠ in 3rd hand with ♠AKQxx and out. While it is forbidden to have a partnership agreement to open hands that don't satisfy the rule of 18 (HCP + nr. of cards in the two longest suits >=18), everyone would agree that opening with AKQxx xxx xxx xx is hand evaluation and perfectly ok. If you open Qxxxx Kxx xxx Ax you might get in trouble though.

 

Opening a weak 2 with it is obvioulsy allowed as well. It is even allowed with a 4 card suit.

[Fluffy]

Congrats to everyone, I never got a thread so hijacked as this one in 10 years on BBF