Clubs or Not Clubs

[wyman]

MPs

[hv=d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1cdp1np2np3c]133|100[/hv]

 

What's South got (besides some nerve for pulling this crap...)?

[Codo]

Partner already denied a long suit. If he holds one or two majors AND decided to bid 1 NT instead, the 2 NT bid will surely not convince him that he should now look for a possible major fit. So, he showed clubs...

[kenrexford]

Obviously this is Puppet Stayman, in case partner made a "practical" 2NT call with a five-card major.

 

 

I am of course joking, but I suppose I would bid as if it were Puppet Stayman at the actual table.

[CSGibson]

Hmm - If partner had long clubs & wanted to suggest it as a trump suit, the best way of doing that is passing 1♣X, so I'm going to reject that possibility.

 

My best guess: He's got regrets for bidding 1N with an xxxx club "stopper" & wants to know if you have it stopped.

[aguahombre]

"Some nerve for pulling this crap" works for me, Wyman. Let's assume there is a reason he didn't pass 2NT, and unless he has a max (9-10) 1NT advance to the double, bidding anything over 2NT would be silly.

 

He isn't looking for a 3-5 Major fit, since opener doesn't have 5M. (Would have rebid 2M rather than 2N). If Advancer has diamond length he would have bid diamonds, now or earlier.

 

That brings us back to "some nerve for....". I guess accepting game, but hating his club stop is all that is left; but, what is partner supposed to do with that information?

 

Ah, wait a minute. I know the answer: advancer is having a brain-fart about 2NT being good/bad or Leben :rolleyes: , and this thread will morph into a ruling question due the UI involving alerts.

[wyman]

Ah, wait a minute. I know the answer: advancer is having a brain-fart about 2NT being good/bad or Leben :rolleyes: , and this thread will morph into a ruling question due the UI involving alerts.

 

Haha, I promise it's not that.

[BunnyGo]

I have no idea. Does he have 2236 with 6 lousy clubs and a desire to turn a plus into a minus?

[mikeh]

When in doubt, assume natural.

 

I sure have doubt here....doubt that my partner knows how to play bridge.

 

I'm passing and, if possible, heading for the bar. Maybe I'll find out later just what insanity was going through his brain

 

I understand, sort of, the possibility that he lacks a club stopper, but in that case just wtf does he think we're going to do about it? I mean, it's great if we have a stopper, but then why didn't we overcall 1N? Our raise suggests 15 or so hcp, so why no 1N?

 

And if I don't have a stopper, as suggested by my double, just where are we playing this hand? I know I'd rather play 2N than a 3-level 4-3 fit with the long trump tapped (and possibly overruffed) at trick 3.

 

Maybe he should have thought about this sequence before making the constructive 1N bid.

[aguahombre]

hating his club stop is all that is left; but, what is partner supposed to do with that information?

 

I understand, sort of, the possibility that he lacks a club stopper, but in that case just wtf does he think we're going to do about it?

Does it scare you sometimes, when we think alike? For me it is reinforcing; but it must worry you :rolleyes:

[wyman]

Playing devil's advocate briefly:

 

You hold something like

 

Q10x / K9x / Q10xx / Jxx

 

and want to express your values to partner but think that a jump in diamonds sounds like 5.

 

1N sounded like a pretty good spot if partner passed, but 3N red doesn't sound so good unless partner has clubs. Heck, 2N doesn't sound great if partner can't help in clubs. So what could partner have? If partner has, say, a 4414 15-16 count (so a 'defective' major-suit oriented 1N overcall), X doesn't seem so crazy, and you probably want to play in 3N. If partner's broke in clubs, it's _definitely_ not clear that 3D won't play well, and it's possible that you can reverse dummy in 3M and come to 8 or 9, scoring as well as 2N.

 

This hand in particular may be a clear-cut pass over 2N, but you can see what the 3C-bidder might have been thinking with whatever he held.

 

On the other hand, it's not at all clear to me that 3C is not a suggestion to play, hence the post.

[aguahombre]

a seven working count and 3 3 4 3 distribution, with a bunch of "quacks" looks like a 1♦ advance. But perhaps we are too old fashioned in our normal expectation for pard's double.

 

That was in reply to Wyman's devil example.

[wyman]

Totally fair Aguaman: Make it A10x / K10x / J109x / J8x, or whatever example hand fits your parameters for a 1N advance but is concerned after the 2N raise.

[gwnn]

4414? yuck dude.

[JLOGIC]

Interesting. DNE for me. If I had 6 clubs and a yarborough and I didn't want to pass, I sure as hell wouldn't bid 1N lol. 1N shows some values especially when they open clubs, you could just bid a 3 card suit at the 1 level otherwise. I can't think of any hand I'd bid 1N with with no club stopper though either, maybe 3334 10-11 count with 4 small? If I did that though I'd continue with the bluff and bid 3N, where am I going if not 3N anyways?

 

If it happened at the table I would not pass. Natural and NF just is not possible in my book.

[bluecalm]

I really have no idea :)

My wild guess would be weakish 6 clubs which didn't want to pass 1C but now when partner showd balanced hand it started to look better to play there. At the table I am almost surely not passing, too much chance partner is on different wavelength.

 

On different note:

1N - 2C

2D - 2N (invite)

3C/3D = ? :-)

 

Or:

 

1N - 2N (nat invite)

3C/3D = ?

[JLOGIC]

I really have no idea :)

My wild guess would be weakish 6 clubs which didn't want to pass 1C but now when partner showd balanced hand it started to look better to play there. At the table I am almost surely not passing, too much chance partner is on different wavelength.

 

On different note:

1N - 2C

2D - 2N (invite)

3C/3D = ? :-)

 

Or:

 

1N - 2N (nat invite)

3C/3D = ?

 

Both of those are to play imo with like a 6 card minor and 14 or w/e.

[MrAce]

So i have good enough ♣ to play at 3 level but not good enough to defend 1♣ doubled ?

 

This 3♣ is not to play.

[bluecalm]

I am not convinced that it should be natural but:

 

So i have good enough ♣ to play at 3 level but not good enough to defend 1♣ doubled ?

 

this is not fair.

If responder has KQx Qxx xx T98xxx or something like that he is not thrilled to pass 1C, because partner is quite likely to have strong hand with club shortness (and possible long suit on the side too) and playing in 1C is a disaster in such case.

Once partner bid 2N things change considerably though as now the worst thing which can happen is 4-4-4-1 in partner's hand, usually we flop 2+clubs though.

 

One other meaning which makes sense to me is a hand lacking club stopper with extras, something like: KQx KQx T9xx xxx maybe.

[gwnn]

Sometimes hands like this worry me, because if you start your thinking with whether it can be natural you arrive at the conclusion that it's not so it must be artificial, but if you start your thinking with whether it can be artificial then no it's not so it must be natural! Sherlock Holmes' famous quote should be amended by "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. But first check whether it's possible!"

 

It is a guess here and I would guess weak with long clubs.

 

Artificial meanings I've been thinking about:

-super max with 5 diamonds

-pick a major with 3316

 

No need to tell me that they are weird - I know! That's why I'm playing partner for long clubs.

[Zelandakh]

Obviously this is mini-Gerber! Just pretend you have 3 aces and bid 3NT, then let partner sort it out in the play.

[JLOGIC]

I am not convinced that it should be natural but:

 

 

 

this is not fair.

If responder has KQx Qxx xx T98xxx or something like that he is not thrilled to pass 1C, because partner is quite likely to have strong hand with club shortness (and possible long suit on the side too) and playing in 1C is a disaster in such case.

Once partner bid 2N things change considerably though as now the worst thing which can happen is 4-4-4-1 in partner's hand, usually we flop 2+clubs though.

 

One other meaning which makes sense to me is a hand lacking club stopper with extras, something like: KQx KQx T9xx xxx maybe.

 

I mean not to argue semantics but this is 14 cards. If you took away a major card, you should obv pass 2N rather than bid 3C, I mean you will usually have 3 or 4 club losers, and you have 22+ points, why would you pull 2N? I would expect to make 2N on power way more than making 3C and going down in 2N.

[ahydra]

Is it not possible for South to have 4-4 in the majors and a hand too good to respond at the 1-level? Perfectly reasonable to play jump = 5 cards, and perfectly reasonable also for the doubler to not bid a 4c major if he has a balanced 15.

 

ahydra

[gwnn]

No it's not perfectly reasonable to play that 1NT could have 4-4 in the majors, or even one 4 card major routinely.

 

If you want to play jump=5 cards, you need to play the 1M advance as ~0-10 and require doubler to raise on all hands with 4-card support. I think that's a playable style, indeed I think some Italians might play this way.

[gnasher]

If you want to play jump=5 cards, you need to play the 1M advance as ~0-10 and require doubler to raise on all hands with 4-card support. I think that's a playable style, indeed I think some Italians might play this way.

Another way to do is is to play the cue-bid as a one-round force only, including all the hands without a five-card suit. That's what I do in one partnership. Sequences like dbl-2♣;2♥, dbl-2♣;2♦-2♥ and dbl-2♣;2♥-2♠ are non-forcing, so the downside is that if either partner wants to force to game he has to go to the three-level.

 

You can also play dbl-1♦ as an artificial negative.

[MrAce]

I am not convinced that it should be natural but:

 

 

 

this is not fair.

If responder has KQx Qxx xx T98xxx or something like that he is not thrilled to pass 1C, because partner is quite likely to have strong hand with club shortness (and possible long suit on the side too) and playing in 1C is a disaster in such case.

Once partner bid 2N things change considerably though as now the worst thing which can happen is 4-4-4-1 in partner's hand, usually we flop 2+clubs though.

 

One other meaning which makes sense to me is a hand lacking club stopper with extras, something like: KQx KQx T9xx xxx maybe.

 

I am looking at the hand you constructed, and then i am looking at your comments and having hard time where to start to talk about the inconsistency. Your pd's 2NT basically represented aprx a strong NT hand (can still have short ♣ as u mentioned) that was unable to bid 1NT previous round. And you want to play 3♣ with this hand and not 2 NT or 3NT ? I mean you are so busy looking at your hand and beans and cant see the bigger picture. If you put 15 hcp to your pd's hand with stiff or xx ♣ u almost always have a good shot at 3 NT since your hand guards their suit and since you will play double dummy and since defense will have to be done from one hand etc etc. If they cash ♣ u may end up establishing 2-3 ♣ tricks, if they dont good luck to them with digging the other suits which you overwhelmiongly support your pd's 14-15 hcp. But if you dont wanna play 3 NT, then wtf is wrong with 2NT with this hand u hold ? :)

 

But regardless, as others said, natural or not, i think its an unneccesarry bid.