Who should apologize? ATB

[Finch]

On your actual auction, is gnasher right that 2NT was split range balanced?

 

The one thing that North can't do, as mich-b points out, is to take control with a keycard ask and then sign off with only one keycard missing. That's double-crossing partner.

 

3S over 3D does sound ambiguous - either it's looking for 3NT or it's an advance cue for diamonds. 3H sounds like it could show good hearts, looking for a 5-2 fit, which is also a bit ambiguous. North could have made his hand type clearer on the round before simply by raising 3D to 4D, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit". South can cue 4H (or ask for keycards!), North 4S, South 5C, North 6D and there you are.

[awm]

For me 3♠ is a cue for diamonds. North could have temporized with 2♥ if he was wide open in a black suit; once he bids 2nt there shouldn't be a concern about whether 3nt is "playable" -- only whether we have a diamond slam. I would've bid 3♥ over 3♦ (cheapest cue). I think 3♦ sets trump opposite partner's balanced hand, although 3nt by either partner (indicating a poor hand for slam) could still end the auction.

[ArtK78]

If you include a 5-card major in your 1NT openings and you play a 'normal' style 15-17 1NT then this hand is too strong. "15-17" is usually taken to mean nowadays "very good 14 to most 17s", although there are certainly people around who play it as somewhat stronger.

 

Personally I open balanced hands with a 5-card major 1 of the major, as does quite a large proportion of the (non-US) bridge playing world. You would do well to lay off the sarcasm.

Please don't attribute the 1NT bids on hands like these to US players. I would open the hand 1♥ without the ♦J, as it does not appear to me to be the right type of 5-card major hand to open 1NT.

[gnasher]

North could have made his hand type clearer on the round before simply by raising 3D to 4D, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit"

Or even 4♣, saying "I have the 18-19 balanced type hand and some sort of diamond fit and a club control."

[xcurt]

I think N gets some blame and poor agreements get some blame, but also sometimes you just have to take a shot at small slam even if you don't know it's cold. Since there's really no way competent opponents at the other table will miss game, you aren't laying very much odds taking a shot.

[Nabooba]

If you include a 5-card major in your 1NT openings and you play a 'normal' style 15-17 1NT then this hand is too strong. "15-17" is usually taken to mean nowadays "very good 14 to most 17s", although there are certainly people around who play it as somewhat stronger.

 

Personally I open balanced hands with a 5-card major 1 of the major, as does quite a large proportion of the (non-US) bridge playing world. You would do well to lay off the sarcasm.

 

Got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, did we?

Is it advertized as 14-17? I bet not.

[wyman]

Got out of the wrong side of bed this morning, did we?

Is it advertized as 14-17? I bet not.

 

yes, on the card people often write (14)15-17, and I very often hear the announcement "good 14-17."

[bluecalm]

In 2/1 it's usually played as split-range, either 11-14 or 18+.

 

Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.

While it might be standard in some parts of the world I am not sure if it's implied by "2/1" system.

 

as it does not appear to me to be the right type of 5-card major hand to open 1NT.

 

If you use judgement when choosing an opening with 5M-3-3-2 in 1NT range then you need to know what to do in:

 

1S - 2X

?

 

I mean, just because we are forced to game it's not a reason we can randomly bid something and hope to sort range later. We need to know what to do with 12-14 balanced, 15-17 balanced and 18+balanced or however else we split our range here.

 

So, before we answer OP we need to know what kind of hand opener described by his 2N call.

Btw imo by far the best agreement is that 2N is 15+ and 12-14hands go into 2 of opener major (that is for people who don't auto open 1N with 5M-3-3-2).

[gnasher]

Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.

While it might be standard in some parts of the world I am not sure if it's implied by "2/1" system.

When someone in this forum describes his system as "2/1" without further qualification, he invariably means "2/1 game-force, approximately as played by most people in North America". You can fight this if you want to, but you won't be able to change it.

 

Btw imo by far the best agreement is that 2N is 15+ and 12-14hands go into 2 of opener major (that is for people who don't auto open 1N with 5M-3-3-2).

If that's true, it's a good reason to agree to open 1NT on the 5M332 15-17s. 1M-2x;2M is already rather overloaded (except after a 2♣ response); it seems a bad idea to treble the frequency of this bid by adding all the minimum balanced hands to the mix.

[gwnn]

Yep, split range is playable too but that requires that you auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.

You can bid 2M or 3NT (or upgrade/downgrade to 2NT) with the 15-17's on hands that you don't want to open 1NT. It is not perfect, but neither is it unplayable in my opinion. So it doesn't require you to auto open every 5M-3-3-2 in range with 1N.

[bluecalm]

You can fight this if you want to, but you won't be able to change i

 

It's not my intention to fight that. It was genuine question: "does "2/1" implies that we auto-open 1NT with 5M-3-3-2 in range".

 

The rest of us already know.

 

If it's that clear then isn't it just as obvious that 3S promises (17)18+ range and skipping club cuebid with 30+hcp guaranteed is just a blunder ?

 

If that's true, it seems a pretty good reason for always opening 1NT with 5M332.

 

I think bidding 2N with 12-14 has disadvantages. With 12-14 you often lack stoppers and lose a chance to check for them (via 3rd suit) or play NT from better side. With 15+ it becomes less of a problem.

Putting those hands into 2M is imo better and there is enough space to untangle it. You could also put strong one suited hands there too (because jumping to 3M with them makes subsequent auction one big guess) and still be able to untangle it.

[gnasher]

If it's that clear then isn't it just as obvious that 3S promises (17)18+ range and skipping club cuebid with 30+hcp guaranteed is just a blunder ?

No, it's not obvious. If you read some of the answers above, you'll see that many of us think 3♠ shows good spades, weak clubs, and uncertainty about the right strain.

[JLOGIC]

I hope 2NT promised extras ? It seems unplayable if it's 12-21.

 

Not to join the bandwagon against you but I really don't agree. Even if you want to open 1M with 5332 5cM you can bid 3N with 15+-17- to show that. This is definitely playable, and is not uncommon in other forcing auctions where jumps to 3N show ~16 with a certain shape.

 

12-21 seems like a disengenuous range, with 17+ you're not that concerned about reaching 4N opposite a 2/1 GF, and with 19+ you're not really concerned about driving to slam so those ranges being in 2N are not an issue since opener can do something later beyond 3N to show it.

 

If 2N was 12-17- or so then yes that would be a problem, but only on the hands where you're worried about missing slam, but also about going beyond 3N, so this range is really about 16ish (maybe a good 15 or a bad 17). That is the range to worry about and that can be solved by either opening 1N or jumping to 3N over 2D, it's not really such a huge probelm.

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, fwiw in my preferred style 2N shows good stoppers, and 5332 without good stoppers bids 2M. My main concern is to rightside 3N with these hands since that is a common thing, as I really do not think it's a problem if 2N is split range.

[bluecalm]

That is the range to worry about and that can be solved by either opening 1N or jumping to 3N over 2D, it's not really such a huge probelm.

 

Maybe I shouldn't use "auto-open" what I mean that many hands in 15-17 range don't open 1NT.

I don't like jumping to 3N, two things which are important is to check for 3card support in responder suit and for responder to show support in opener's suit. If you jump to 3N there is no space for that anymore.

If it goes: 1S - 2D - 3N you run out of bids because you need:

 

a)some bid to show slammish hands with S support

b)some bid for slammish hands with diamonds

c)some bid to show D+C two suiter

 

and it would be nice to have cuebids available with spades as trumps too.

 

it's not really such a huge probelm.

 

I am not saying it's huge problem :)

 

I asked if "2/1" implies opening 5M-3-3-2 with 1N because if not then it's not clear to me what 2N in OP is. Then I made general remark about this sequence expressing opinion that bidding 2N with 12-14 is inferior to bidding 2M which you seem to agree with, at least partially. I am not making huge problem out of it I am just saying.

 

you'll see that many of us think 3♠ shows good spades, weak clubs, and uncertainty about the right strain.

 

It goes against basic bidding principles to first bid NT and then look for stoppers instead doing it the other way around imo.

[JLOGIC]

Bluecalm:

 

I think of the subset of hands that you don't open 1N, you can bid 3N showing that hand type. This is not perfect obviously, but it is a small subset of hands and I'm surprised you're so worried about it.

 

Personally, I think rightsiding 3N is the most important aspect. Maybe you were super prime and decided not to open 1N and you still don't wanna bid NT (Axx AKTxx Axx xx). In that case, you can bid 2H followed by 3D then guess. Still not perfect, but that is why some people open 1N with those hands, to avoid rebid problems. And if you don't, bidding NT next doesn't seem best anyways, keep trying to get partner to bid NT and you keep bidding suits since your hand is so suit oriented. I mean, nothing is perfect, but I would say systemically bidding 2H with all 5332 mins and bidding 2N with AQ KJxxx xxx KTx and getting some black suit lead through when your partner declares 3N is also a problem. Nothing is perfect. I just don't think the range of hands that you open 1H and then want to bid NT and then gain by bidding 2N rather than 3N because you are scared to drive to 4N but want to show extras and didn't open 1N is a very frequent/important hand type. Just my 2 cents but I am a macho 1N opener guy :P

[Codo]

 

If that's true, it's a good reason to agree to open 1NT on the 5M332 15-17s. 1M-2x;2M is already rather overloaded (except after a 2♣ response); it seems a bad idea to treble the frequency of this bid by adding all the minimum balanced hands to the mix.

 

This style is pretty common in many bidding systems (wj2010, SEF, ForumD), so I would not agree with you. It works quite well and is not too difficult.

[jdeegan]

:P You presented an excellent hand for discussion, imo. I have a few thoughts:

 

1. The choice of whether to open 1NT or 1♥ is conditioned, in part, as to whether in your agreements a 2♥ rebid over a two of a minor response shows six or more. If not, my personal choice, then a 2♥ rebid shows 11-14, and a 2NT rebid 15+ (more or less). If 2♥ shows 6+, then you better always open 1NT, else you have an impossible rebid problem.

 

2. Assuming the former, then 2NT shows the extra king or more, and 3♦ is slammish since in 2/1 a semi-balanced invitational diamond hand (10-11 points more or less) can just bid 3NT.

 

3. Even with ♦ Jx, a cue bid of 3♥ seems right. It uses up no room. My hand is toward the top of the 15 to 19 in terms of statistical frequency. I have FOUR quick tricks. My odd jack is working. Finally, PARTNER IS STILL UNLIMITED.

 

4. As responder I am still interested in slam, but willing to subside in 5♦ if necessary. 3NT might get passed. 3♠ & 4♣ seem wrong to me, since in my world a hand as powerful as mine should begin by cue bidding first round controls. This leaves 4♦ - forcing since we have been flirting with slam.

 

5. Why not try a 4♠ cue bid on the way to more diamonds?

 

6. Now I can trot out 5♣.

 

7. 6♦. No reason to try for seven since pard has shown no sign of having a solid diamond suit. If seven is available on brute power, pard will know and bid it.

[mikeh]

Understandably, the discussion has been, as far as I can see, about the bidding, but the OP described a play 'problem', which arose after the ♦10 was led, dummy covered with the Jack and RHO played the K. OP asked if one should now hook rho for the 9 or play for the drop.

 

This is actually a trick question, imo, tho probably not intentionally so.

 

The play problem, which is trivial, came a trick earlier....when LHO led the 10, who would ever play him to have led the stiff 10? It is infinitely (ok, I exaggerate for effect) more likely that he has led from 109x or 109 or 10x, in descending order of probability.

 

So the correct play at trick 1 is to duck in dummy.