Someone should write a good book on just competitive auctions

[Mbodell]

All white at MP you start the following auction:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sajt95ht52daqj9cj&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sd1n2c]133|200[/hv]

[mgoetze]

In response to the title: it's already been written.

In response to the subtitle: yes.

[ahydra]

2D. You've got more than a minimum, there's no need to deny the diamond suit by bidding 2S, and you're about a queen light for a double.

 

ahydra

[bluecalm]

In response to the title: it's already been written.

 

And what is it ?

[mgoetze]

And what is it ?

Partnership Bidding at Bridge

[bluecalm]

Right, I forgot this one.

I agree, this is quite good.

As you reminded me of that one it's good opportunity to re-read :)

[JLOGIC]

As long as you play double is takeout, then that is the perfect and "routine" call. If you don't play double as takeout, I would say 2D is automatic, but you should then quickly change your agreements. Double being takeout here is definitely a dominate agreement for adv+ players, but perhaps would be misinterpreted without discussion by a b/i or a non modern bidder.

 

You do not need extra values to double over 2C, although our hand is quite suitable for whatever happens (if partner passes, that's fine, if partner bids something, nice).

[mgoetze]

Hi Justin,

 

let's say partner is 4-4 in the reds and we bid a takeout double. How do you see the auction continuing?

[JLOGIC]

At imps I suppose I would expect him usually to bid 2D unless he had a good enough hand that he was hoping for me to raise 2H so he could bid game (but not good enough to bid stronger than that). At MP I suppose he might bid 2H more often especially with good hearts to try and play a higher scoring partial. With a strong hand and 4-4 I'd expect him to cuebid.

 

Partner being exactly 4-4 is just not something I consume myself with. Doubling has so much upside beyond that. I mean for starters, partner might just have a pass, then I'm happy. Partner might be 1534 and pass 2D or 25xx and bid 2S over 2D. Partner might bid 2N over 2D but avoid it over X since he knows we have a stiff club. Etc etc.

 

There are always bad shapes/holdings when you make a takeout double. I double 1S with 1345 rather than bid 2C, even thoguh partner will be stretching to bid hearts. If it goes 4D on my right I don't consider not doubling with 5413 because partner will bid the wrong major with 3-3 in the majors or whatever.

 

In this case if my downside is 4-4, I am not even that concerned about it, sometimes partner will bid diamonds and if he has a good hnd or good hearts we might scramble a good amount of tricks in 2H.

[rhm]

At imps I suppose I would expect him usually to bid 2D unless he had a good enough hand that he was hoping for me to raise 2H so he could bid game (but not good enough to bid stronger than that). At MP I suppose he might bid 2H more often especially with good hearts to try and play a higher scoring partial. With a strong hand and 4-4 I'd expect him to cuebid.

 

Partner being exactly 4-4 is just not something I consume myself with. Doubling has so much upside beyond that. I mean for starters, partner might just have a pass, then I'm happy. Partner might be 1534 and pass 2D or 25xx and bid 2S over 2D. Partner might bid 2N over 2D but avoid it over X since he knows we have a stiff club. Etc etc.

 

There are always bad shapes/holdings when you make a takeout double. I double 1S with 1345 rather than bid 2C, even thoguh partner will be stretching to bid hearts. If it goes 4D on my right I don't consider not doubling with 5413 because partner will bid the wrong major with 3-3 in the majors or whatever.

 

In this case if my downside is 4-4, I am not even that concerned about it, sometimes partner will bid diamonds and if he has a good hnd or good hearts we might scramble a good amount of tricks in 2H.

The trouble in my opinion is less that partner may bid the wrong red suit, but that it looks unlikely that you can catch them in 2♣X with a good score.

(Would you also double if you were void in clubs and the ♣J would have been the ♥J? Obviously you now have a "perfect" takeout DBL, yet partner will leave the DBL in a high percentage of time.)

For starters nobody is vulnerable, so for a good score you would have to hold them to 6 tricks.

Is that likely, given that partner is under the 2♣ bidder?

 

Maybe a world class partner will judge correctly when to leave such a double in and when not.

I have been hurt too often. I prefer a quiet 2♦ for now, considering a "takeout" double premature.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

As long as you play double is takeout, then that is the perfect and "routine" call.

I am interested in this since I learned that double in this spot (after a 2♣ overcall) tends to suggest 4 hearts while 2♥ tends to suggest 5 hearts. Does the take-out double beforehand sufficiently change the percentages in the heart suit to change this or am I just being old-fashioned again?

[Phil]

Double is takeout, just as if LHO passed instead of doubled. We have the perfect shape for it, and I don't think because we are heavy in two suits this becomes a 2♦ call.

[jillybean]

and I don't think because we are heavy in two suits this becomes a 2♦ call.

This is why I would choose 2♦ rather than double, and happy to learn why double is better.

[billw55]

This is why I would choose 2♦ rather than double, and happy to learn why double is better.

I would choose 2♦ partly for this same reason, and partly because I think partner would have chosen 1♥ if he had five of them, or maybe four good ones. While it is true we may end in a 7-card fit anyway, the spades and diamonds look better for this purpose, at least I know we have trump quality.

[mgoetze]

I would choose 2♦ partly for this same reason, and partly because I think partner would have chosen 1♥ if he had five of them, or maybe four good ones.

 

There may have been other reasons for not choosing 1♥, e.g. perhaps partner dislikes the tournament director and doesn't want to see him.

[bluecalm]

Double is takeout, just as if LHO passed instead of doubled. We have the perfect shape for it, and I don't think because we are heavy in two suits this becomes a 2♦ call.

 

I voted double but I changed my mind.

I think double should be stronger. Partner is in 5-11 range and if we hope to ever bid reasonable games here he needs to make forward moving action with (8)9-11 opposite our double.

Maybe we could just assume that if both of them are bidding those considerations are less important, I dunno. It seems clear to me that:

1S - p - 1N 2C

dbl should promise stronger hand though.

 

I am not convinced that it changes here but it well might be so if partner is on the same wave-length.

[JLOGIC]

I voted double but I changed my mind.

I think double should be stronger. Partner is in 5-11 range and if we hope to ever bid reasonable games here he needs to make forward moving action with (8)9-11 opposite our double.

Maybe we could just assume that if both of them are bidding those considerations are less important, I dunno. It seems clear to me that:

1S - p - 1N 2C

dbl should promise stronger hand though.

 

How do you come to that conclusion? Are you passing or something? If you bid 2D, you have the exact same problem of having a wide range, but you have described your hand less. Having wide ranges in 1M p 1N auctions is part of life in 2/1/SAYC like systems.

[JLOGIC]

I am interested in this since I learned that double in this spot (after a 2♣ overcall) tends to suggest 4 hearts while 2♥ tends to suggest 5 hearts. Does the take-out double beforehand sufficiently change the percentages in the heart suit to change this or am I just being old-fashioned again?

 

I have never heard of this but I have heard it suggested the other way (I think there was a thread on this forum about this?) that you should bid 2H with 4 hearts and avoid doubling with 4 hearts or something.

 

To me, I am happy to be able to show a stiff club and support for the other suits and go from there. I would also be doubling with 6421 sometimes (definitely with a strong enough hand to force to 3S), and sometimes with 6331 (definitely if I had enough to force to 3S as I can double and bid 3S). I am just trying to describe my hand and try to get to the best spot overall, and I think doubling with both 5431 and 5341 is the best way to do that.

[JLOGIC]

The trouble in my opinion is less that partner may bid the wrong red suit, but that it looks unlikely that you can catch them in 2♣X with a good score.

(Would you also double if you were void in clubs and the ♣J would have been the ♥J? Obviously you now have a "perfect" takeout DBL, yet partner will leave the DBL in a high percentage of time.)

For starters nobody is vulnerable, so for a good score you would have to hold them to 6 tricks.

Is that likely, given that partner is under the 2♣ bidder?

 

Maybe a world class partner will judge correctly when to leave such a double in and when not.

I have been hurt too often. I prefer a quiet 2♦ for now, considering a "takeout" double premature.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

Hi Rainer, I think it is very pesismistic to think that if partner passes we won't get a good score. We have quick tricks and the jack of clubs. I do not consider 5440 a perfect takeout double, I would double with it also but I would be scared partner would pass. In general I never think having a void is the perfect shape for any takeout double.

 

I also don't like the argument that for a good score we'd have to beat them 2. If partner has long or good clubs and scattered values, why should we be making anything?

[billw55]

There may have been other reasons for not choosing 1♥, e.g. perhaps partner dislikes the tournament director and doesn't want to see him.

haha you got me. I misread the auction.

[hiatus]

The possibility of finding partner with 5 hearts and 2 spades is a big advantage of doubling.

Another advantage is that when you instead bid 2D or 2H partner can take a stronger inference that you have ten cards in two suits.

[bluecalm]

How do you come to that conclusion? Are you passing or something? If you bid 2D, you have the exact same problem of having a wide range, but you have described your hand less. Having wide ranges in 1M p 1N auctions is part of life in 2/1/SAYC like systems.

 

It might be the fact of life for standard systems in NA.

I recently spent some time going through Italian pairs bidding and it's not fact of life for them (as all 16+ go into 2C so 2D/2H are limited to 15hcp). I believe they do something similar in comp and I like it a lot.

There are two questions: "what is best" and "what is expected in standard". I am expressing my opinion about the first of those questions; seeing how wide range calls cause a lot of trouble for standard bidders (even world class ones) and how it's solved in Italian systems (some Polish pairs do something similar by introducing transfers). If I just agreed standard I would probably double as if 2D is expected to be 12-18 then I won't benefit from limit nature of that call anyway.

Oh and I am for sure not passing. With perfect (imo) agreements I would pass with 5-3-3-2 12-14. Bid 2D/2H with 4 of them in 11-15range and double with great 15's an up.

 

Anyway, I still don't know how 2 opponents bidding influence this situation. Maybe shape is the most important here as game is more distant target now. I could easily be convinced that it's a double in such situation.

[Nabooba]

Double should be played for takeout, but that is not a good call here. You have an excellent Diamond suit and we should let partner know that.

[MrAce]

I think double should be stronger. Partner is in 5-11 range and if we hope to ever bid reasonable games here he needs to make forward moving action with (8)9-11 opposite our double.

 

Where is this 5-11 coming from ? Why would someone bid with 5-6 hcp and no fit over a double ? I always thought, if 1NT is natural after a T/O double that it is about 8-10 hcp.

 

Some may argue that 1NT can have preemptive effect on doubler's partner but in this auction thats not the case either, we opened 1♠.

 

i.e 1♥-X-1NT disables 1♠ bid or 1m-X-1NT disables both 1 major bids etc...

[bluecalm]

Where is this 5-11 coming from ? Why would someone bid with 5-6 hcp and no fit over a double ? I always thought, if 1NT is natural after a T/O double that it is about 8-10 hcp.

 

I am stupid. I was thinking about 1S - p -1N 2C all the time and all the remarks are to that.

OP situation is completely different obviously, sry for confusion.