flytoox Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX I'd say if your bidding starts: 1♣ 2♣ (inverted minor- natural and forcing)3♥ (Maximum with 4 hearts and 4+ clubs) You aren't going to have much trouble getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX I'd say if your bidding starts: 1♣ 2♣ (inverted minor- natural and forcing)3♥ (Maximum with 4 hearts and 4+ clubs) You aren't going to have much trouble getting there. Suppose you hear pd open 1N. Can you construct a convincing way to reach 7N with all natural but logical bid? Many thanks. Hongjun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Not sure where science starts and 'natural bidding' stops, but a semi-standard sequence: 1♣ - 2♣3♠ - 4♥4N - 4♠5N - 6♥7♣. Posters on this site will have a cheaper key card ask than 4N for ♣'s, and get to 7 more comfortably, but I think the above-sequence could be used by a pair playing a modicum of tools. No matter who does the asking, I can see problems getting to 7N, since its about impossible to identify the red queen in the other hand. (Edited) If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 (Edited) If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control. Would not you start with stayman then bid 3c? Or Do you play minor xfer then major suit bid as natural not short? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 [suppose you hear pd open 1N. Can you construct a convincing way to reach 7N with all natural but logical bid? Maybe it can be constructed, but I'm pretty sure in real life we'd end up at 6NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 inverted minors is not natural bidding to me, this would be my auction: 1♣-1♦1♥-1♠*3♦-4♣4♦-4NT5♣-5NT6♦-7♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 inverted minors is not natural bidding to me, this would be my auction: 1♣-1♦1♥-1♠*3♦-4♣4♦-4NT5♣-5NT6♦-7♣ Inverted minor is fine, but what if pd opens 1N? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT. South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go.... !N - 2S2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed). Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT. South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go.... !N - 2S2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed). Ben Ben, dont you bid stayman first, say 1n--2c2d--3c? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXXhey fly, what do you mean by 'natural'? no relays, etc? if this is opened as if 12-15 with us, then it goes 1nt : 2d - game force2nt : 3c - any 4333 : asking3nt : 4c - 3334 : cab4s : 4nt - 5 controls : scanning (order is CSHD)5c : 5d - no top club : scanning6c : 6d - top spade, top heart, A, K, or Q of diamonds : scanning6s : 7nt - club Q no other top spade, placing responder knows the controls are the ♠A and ♥A & K, and he knows there are 9 clubs to the A, K, Q and that opener has the ♦Q... he can count 13 tricks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX 1N 3S 3S = s/t4C 4D 4C agrees C, 4D = cue4H 4N 4H cue, 4N = kcb5S 6D 5S = 2 with, 6D = D ask - willing to play 6H or 6N6S 7C Q of D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 (Edited) If North opens the bidding with 1N, I can see a transfer to clubs, followed by South showing the heart suit and few cue bids, and one taking control. Would not you start with stayman then bid 3c? Or Do you play minor xfer then major suit bid as natural not short? Thanks. I play "Goldman" with a few partners. After 1N - 2♠ / 2N (showing ♣'s / ♦'s), a subsequent 3 of a major shows slam interest and the OTHER major. This sets up an easy sequence usually. Alternately, you can play 3 of the major as natural (well, you wanted natural right? :( ) or as shortness-showing after the transfer to the minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Natural to me would be 1NT 2C2D 3C3H 4C4S 4NT5S... and now it kinda depends on how lucky you feel. Mind you this was with minimal gadgetry, apart from stayman and blackwood :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX I think the only "natural" opening bid with north in the context of 2/1 or SAYC (where this hand is posted), is an opening bid of 1NT. South is clearly thinking slam after a 1NT opening bid, and I see no reason not to bid naturally, show the ♣ suit with 2♠ (transfer) and then do whatever you do over openers rebid. If you show "short suits", show short spades (most typical). IF this was matchpoints, you would have start wtih stayman perhaps... but here I would go.... !N - 2S2N - 3S <<--- now no wasted values in spades, grand slam is not out of the question, but the rest is up to the partnership... but I would continue with a 4♥ cue bid.. (or cute bid.. as I almost typed). Ben Ben, dont you bid stayman first, say 1n--2c2d--3c? I am bidding slam... i like something called jumping jacoby, where 1NT-2H and 1NT-2S are to play, and 1NT-2NT up are all transfers, weak or forcing... so here you could bid 2NT, then bid 3H over 3♣ to show 5+♣ 4+♥ and slam interest. But no one plays that... I don't mind starting 2♣, then rebidding forcing 3♣, but with such a slam going hand, I find show the minor and then the major short suit (assuming you play that) quite effective. You miss some 4-4 major contracts from time to time, but it not a foregone conclusion after showing clubs and then spade shortness, that you can't get back into hearts. At matchpoints, where a 6♣ contract could be huge loser compared to a potential 6♥ contract, 2♣ would have more in favor of it. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 I realize that the following auction is not natural, but this is how I would bid it: 1NT (15-17) -3H (4 hearts, stiff spade, gameforcing)3S (nothing wasted) - 4C (natural)4S (ace, setting clubs as trumps) - 4NT (keycards in clubs, counting the heart king)5D (0 or 3 keys) - 5H (asking for the club queen)5NT (got it, but no side king) - 6D (do you have the diamond queen?)7C (I do!) - 7NT (can count to 13) Playing natural (are stayman, transfers and blackwood natural?) I wouldn't find the grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 30, 2004 Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 1NT - 2♣ 2♦ -3♣ 3♥ -3♠3NT/4♣ -4♦4♥ -4NT5♠ - 7♣/6♦2c stayman3c showing 5 clubs 4M and slam seeking3H cue bid showing club fit3sp cue3NT/4C cue or whatever 3nt mean here4D - cue4H -cue showing second honor in the suit4NT aces5sp - 2 aces with the Q of club7club - to play or 6D if this asks about Q of diamond, if partner has the Q we can bid 7NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badderzboy Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 sorry missed the SAYC bit.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 I don't know any "natural" way to find out about Queens. So I think it is impossible to be certain of 13 tricks in NT via a "natural" auction. On the other hand, I have never seen any pair use entirely natural methods opposite 1NT, and I doubt you do it either! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 ooops, sorry missed the dealer. Then I think I would bid it as Flame suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 1NT - 2♣ 2♦ -3♣ 3♥ -3♠3NT/4♣ -4♦4♥ -4NT5♠ - 7♣/6♦2c stayman3c showing 5 clubs 4M and slam seeking3H cue bid showing club fit3sp cue3NT/4C cue or whatever 3nt mean here4D - cue4H -cue showing second honor in the suit4NT aces5sp - 2 aces with the Q of club7club - to play or 6D if this asks about Q of diamond, if partner has the Q we can bid 7NT. I like this sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aijianhua Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 1NT--2!c2!d---3!c3!h---3!s3NT--4!d4!h---4NT5!s---7!cI think this sequence will be reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mila85 Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I don't play sayc but acol. It's also natural system. 1♣-1♥ (we do not bid inverted minor with 4c major)1NT- 2♦ (16-18 4333 or 5332 with clubs - 2♦ is inv+)2♥-3♣ (min with 3 heards - 3♣ is GF with clubs)3♥-3♠ (cuebids)3NT- 4♦ (3NT shows 4333, can be final contract - 4♦ is cuebid)4♥-4NT (I know about AK in heards - 4NT is allum)5♠-6♦ (2A+Q - Dorosewitz)6♠-7NT (Q or AK in ♦ - final contract) Every natural system has some convenctions.... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junyi_zhu Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dealer: North North:S: AXXH: AKXD: QXXC: QJXX South:S: XH: QJXXD: AKXC: AKTXX It's quite straight forward if you play my system:1N(good 14 to normal 17, balanced) 2C(stayman)2D(denies 4 card major when minimum may have spade suit when maximum) 3S(short spades)4C(natural) 4D(RKC)5C(two KC with Q) 5D(K?)5H(HK) 5N(DQ?)7C(yes) 7NT( now you can count 5 clubs, 3 diamonds, 4 hearts and SA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 why do we worry about such things? this isnt where matches are won and lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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