neilkaz Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 You avoid getting to 7 by not bidding it! If you bid 4NT to ask for key cards you can expect a ♠ loser if PD doesn't have the K since he didn't splinter in ♠. Ask for Kings which invites a grand slam and you should then stay of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 You avoid getting to 7 by not bidding it! If you bid 4NT to ask for key cards you can expect a ♠ loser if PD doesn't have the K since he didn't splinter in ♠. Ask for Kings which invites a grand slam and you should then stay of it!This has all already been written (over 3 years ago!)...but take a look at post #13 (and follow-ups) for why this is not a complete solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So standing the things neither W nor E can contribute for grand but what's happen if 4♠ and K♣ are traded ? Now we have KQ in spade and A4 in club and after 6♥ E can count 13 tricks (1 in club, 5 in diamond, 4 in heart and 2+1A of partner in spade) and bids 7♥. Another grand is if in spade we have xx and in club AKQ because query in club for third round controll starts if is Q or xx (but this one only in query interested - xx aside is not indicated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So standing the things neither W nor E can contribute for grand but what's happen if 4♠ and K♣ are traded ?The RKC approach does not have a serious problem with any ♠Kx holding. The challenge Andy set is in finding the slow spade loser from a ♠Kxx holding without giving up on another case. I am not convinced that anyone from either side (RKC or cues) has tabled a satisfactory answer to that one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 In RKCB King search is based on cue bidding (probably it's sufficent because other cases -4 Kings- are rare) and structurarly there can be a solution (resolved in other way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 In RKCB King search is based on cue bidding (probably it's sufficent because other cases -4 Kings- are rare) and structurarly there can be a solution (resolved in other way).So what is your actual solution to Andy's example (Hand 1 in post #13)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So what is your actual solution to Andy's example (Hand 1 in post #13)?Via 5NT could be 6♥ meaning 0 or 4 Kings (and in this case 0 it's impossibile) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Via 5NT could be 6♥ meaning 0 or 4 Kings (and in this case 0 it's impossibile)And how does this identify the slow spade loser? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 And how does this identify the slow spade loser?When you tells about "slow spade loser" it is better if explain with an example, thanks. If you query with 5♠(=? Q) instead you know there is not Q/xx (and than there is other one) because answer is 6♥(=neg.ve or trump), bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 When you tells about "slow spade loser" it is better if explain with an example, thanks. If you query with 5♠(=? Q) instead you know there is not Q/xx (and than there is other one) because answer is 6♥(=neg.ve or trump), bye.Yes, you can choose to make an SSA in spades instead of a king ask but that means you are guessing on a far wider range of hands. This is the issue that is being discussed. YOu might find it helpful to review Andy's post (#13) and the discussion thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yes, you can choose to make an SSA in spades instead of a king ask but that means you are guessing on a far wider range of hands. This is the issue that is being discussed. YOu might find it helpful to review Andy's post (#13) and the discussion thereafter.To be clear: i don't discuss SSA (that can be a convention that you probably know well) but i don't. My knowledge are of "old school" and all on natural biddings.Fourthemore i stay on RKCB before passing (eventually) on other slam bidding because the solution must be find here. And infact what' s happen if anyone don't know SSA or Kickback ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 To be clear, why don't you take each of the hands, the OP plus the three from #13, and give your auctions with explanations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 To be clear, why don't you take each of the hands, the OP plus the three from #13, and give your auctions with explanations?Hi Zelandakh, you know that are two ways -artificial and natural one - to approach a problem each other with any difficult/complexity and i like more natural method(s) and relative logic. I hope don't make a conflict when i started to talk about 3rd round control and relative position(s), bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I don't see a conflict. However, you seem to claim that you can solve all of the issue son this hand using your chosen (natural) methods and I am asking you to show how you do this with specific auctions for the 4 hands given in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I don't see a conflict. However, you seem to claim that you can solve all of the issue son this hand using your chosen (natural) methods and I am asking you to show how you do this with specific auctions for the 4 hands given in this thread.Well, infact there is not conflict because art. and nat. convention are different and the using frequence it'd depend about its complexity (i.e. art. conv. allow to cover more possibilty) and about method this is not a mine convention. You can see, re-reading what i has told, that combined use already cover many situations and also query again help to solve with adjuntive information. I try to explain it step by step than slowly, bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 This is another hand, for the purpoise of this topic (two suits exchange), that i've seen in other one: ♠ Qx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxx, heart is trump suit. Tell me if you are agree untill now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 This is another hand, for the purpoise of this topic (two suits exchange), that i've seen in other one: ♠ Qx ♥ Axxx ♦ Qx ♣ KQxx, heart is trump suit. Tell me if you are agree untill now.Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):- Kxx K109x KQJx AK Kx K109x KQJx AQx Kx K109x KQJxx AQ You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):- Kxx K109x KQJx AK Kx K109x KQJx AQx Kx K109x KQJxx AQ You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered.About first hand i've already said, the second and third are similar but 5th diamond/3th club. Than with 5♠(=?)-6♣(=Q in club), 6♦(=?)-6♠(=Q in spade too)/6NT(=xx in spade). The concept is to remain at 6 level. If partner bid before 6♦ (than not 5♠) and in spade is not Q the answer is 6NT that is not excluding that in club there is Q. If partner bid 7♣: If Q is not=7♥, If Q is in club=7♦.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 A reasonable cue-bidding auction is -1♦1♥-4♥4♠-5♣5♦-6♣6♥West knows that there's a spade loser, so he's not tempted to go on. If East's spades were Kx instead of Qx, he could bid Keycard over 4♠. This is a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback. Why is this a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback? Can you elaborate? I am not a fan of Kickback (too error prone), but my understanding always was that playing Kickback over heart agreement only interchanges the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT.So in your sequence playing kickback the spade control bid would be 4NT. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Why is this a good example of the disadvantages of Kickback? Can you elaborate? I am not a fan of Kickback (too error prone), but my understanding always was that playing Kickback over heart agreement only interchanges the meaning of 4♠ and 4NT.So in your sequence playing kickback the spade control bid would be 4NT. Rainer HerrmannHis point was that you can't bid kickback after 4NT when 4NT showed a spade control, but you can bid RKC if 4S showed the control instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 It should be considered that if is insert doubleton togheter Q (because are third round controlls) in RKCB answers the same has to be done for singleton and K (second round controlls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 So when you switch on a suit (5♠, 6x) you query for Q, when you bid 5NT you want to know about K. Either first case or the other you sure to have all 5 keys plus Q and are looking for a grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 Lovera, these one-liners make no sense without context. I re-posted the hands a few posts back. It would be much more helpful to give complete auctions for each case. Thanks, bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovera Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 This interesting topic it seems to me had indicated a point that may be considered such a" little nice problem ". Complication are becoming to balanced and managed answers to apply on a generality of cases. I have done mathematician studies and about this type -i say - of algorithmic problem that i like very much too and also me as you we are working at this (RKCB) one to estabilish level of compatibility for vary elements to insert. Than i ask you to be patient because anytime answeres are not quickly to tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinorKid Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Please give your auction for the hands in the OP. Then additional auctions for each of the following East hands (taken from #13):- Kxx K109x KQJx AK Kx K109x KQJx AQx Kx K109x KQJxx AQ You are welcome to add further examples once these 4 are covered. Hand 1 and 2 would had rebid 2NT and 4♥ over 3♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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