Suggestions for 2D/2H/2S/2NT Precision openers ?

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

I would like to have feedback on your thought on Precision 2-level openers.

 

I'll explain here the scheme we have started to use 5 months ago.

 

We play

1C = 16+; over a 1D response, 1H opener artificial rebid shows 19/20+hcp or 4 loser hand

 

1D = nebulous, max 15

1H/S = 5+, max 15

1NT = variable: 10-12 NV 1st/2nd seat, 14-16 otherwise

2C = 5+ clubs, max 15

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so far, "almost standard"

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2D = Multi = weak 2 in a major or 17-20 4441

2H = 3 suiter short in diamonds (may have 5 clubs and a 3 cd major), max 15

 

2S and 2NT are still undefined

 

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3-level openers are standard natural preempts

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Right now, we are trying to decide to plan the use for the 2S and 2NT bids.

Below are some options.

The main problem is a physlosophical one: some approaches will increase the preemptive power, whereas some others will help constructive and competitive bidding (e.g. especially removing ambiguity from the nebulous diamond).

I'd like feedback on the various possibility, based on frequency of coccurrence of the various hand type and the pluses and minuses in your experience.

Also, keep in mind we want to avoid Brown stickers (e.g. 2NT as unspecified bad preempt, or 3S gambling, and in general all 2/3 level opening bids which do not promise 4+ cards in a specific suit).

 

Option 1

 

2D = multi (weak 2 + strong 1-suiter) - as original system

2H = 3-suiter short in diamonds - as original system

2S = weak 2 suiter spades + amother

2NT = weak minor 2 suiter

 

Advantage = greater preemption.

Disavantage = nebulous diamond still unresolved

 

Option 2

 

2D = multi (weak 2 + strong 1-suiter) - as original system

2H = canapè, 4 H + 5 minor (or specifically 5D), max 15

2S = canapè, 4 S + 5 minor (or specifically 5D), max 15

2NT = 55 minor 11-15 ( or 55 major 11-15)

1D opener must include hands with 1 diamond only so 1D cannot be passed

 

Avantage = 1D opener includes only hands with 5+ diams, or bal or 4441

Disadvantage = not much preemption . Weak reponder with no 4 major must respond 1NT even with 0 hcp.

 

Option 3

 

2D = natural 5D/4C or 6+D

2H = natural weak 2

2S = natural weak 2

2NT = 55 minor 10-15

 

1D opener must include hands with 1 diamond only so 1D cannot be passed

 

When holding 17-20 4441, the 1C opener has awkward rebid after 1D response (since 1H is artificial strong), because he cannot use the 2D opener for such hands.

 

 

Avantage = 1D opener includes only hands with 5+ diams and 4M, or bal or 4441

Natural weak 2can be raised more easily than multi.

Disadvantage = not much preemption . Weak reponder with no 4 major must respond 1NT even with 0 hcp.

Problem for opening and rebidding when holding 17-20 4441.

 

Option 4

 

2D = multi (weak 2 + strong 1-suiter) - as original system

2H = 3-suiter short in diamonds - as original system

2S = 1st-second seat= good/bad transfer preempt to clubs (strong responder may use next step as relay)

2NT = = 1st-second seat= good/bad transfer preempt to diamonds (strong responder may use next step as relay)

3C = good-bad xfer preempt to H

3D = good bad xfer preempt to spades

3H = gambling-type hand with clubs

3S = gambling with diamonds

3NT = broken minor

4C/D = Romex Namyats

(I would love to be able to us 3S = generic gambling, but it's Brown sticker)

 

Avantage = Preempt more often with trash hands in 1st second eat without squeezing partner when he is strong.

Disadvantage = Give up weak 2suiters; nebulous 1D unresolved.

 

Option 5

Any combination of the above.

[Gerben47]

How about:

 

2♦ Multi (weak or some hands otherwise tough to bid with 1♣)

2♥ Weak 5♥ + 4+ minor

2♠ Weak 5♠ + 4+ minor

2NT Weak both minors

 

1♦ can be short but after 1♦ 1M 2♣ the ♦ will be always real. You can pass the ♦ in a misfit if you think it is the opponent's hand.

[Chamaco]

How about:

 

2♦ Multi (weak or some hands otherwise tough to bid with 1♣)

2♥ Weak 5♥ + 4+ minor

2♠ Weak 5♠ + 4+ minor

2NT Weak both minors

 

1♦ can be short but after 1♦ 1M 2♣ the ♦ will be always real. You can pass the ♦ in a misfit if you think it is the opponent's hand.

Ok, this would then be option 6 :-)

 

What I would like would be a critical analysis of the various option one vs another, according to the posters' experience :-)

[inquiry]

IF we are voting, here is my vote....

 

Keep multi 2♦

 

Use 2♥ as 4-4 in majors, and MAY include 4414 hands, (along with 4432, 4423 but not 4441).

 

Use 2♠ as spades and minor, what ever stregnth you like... opening hand is ok if that is what you want to play... this tends to make 1♠ openings a six card suit, weak is ok, too, for the preemptive value.

 

Use 2NT as the minor two suiter, opening hand.

 

Use 1♦-1 yak, 2♣ as primarily clubs, not promising much if anything in diamonds

 

I am not sure 2♥ and 2♠ as 4 major, 5♦ is terrible useful... just open 1♦ and if no fit found in major, rebid ♦ or NT as seems appropriate... So 2♥ as major two suiter (4-4-ish, although 4-5 with weak 5 hearts is ok), is a better use, and prevents opening 1♦ on a stiff.

[luke warm]

very old system requiring intermediate 2 bids:

 

2C= 11-16, 3 suiter

2D/H/S=11-16 one suiter with at least 6 pcs

2NT=14-17 with 6+ clubs

3C=11-14 with 6+ clubs

 

loses big time on preemption... whether or not it has a plus gain will have to wait upon results... all 1 of a suit bids show 2 suiters

[Gerben47]

Okay of those you gave I like Option 1 modified:

 

2♦: Multi: Weak in a major or strong 3-suiter

(hands that are tough to bid after 1♣, strong 1-suiters are not so complicated)

2♥: 3-suiter with 0-1 ♦

2♠: Spades and another

2NT: Minors weak

[MickyB]

Some general comments -

 

It is much better to remove the strong options from a multi if permitted, as 2♦-P-P can create havoc for the opps. If you have to include a strong option, find out if a 'solid suit' strong 2 in diamonds would qualify. If so, you can pass 2♦ any time you have a top diamond honour.

 

Don't worry too much about 4441s, they are quite rare. If you put 4414s into your 1♦ opener then forget about them when responding, passing with 5♦ and a weakish hand is perfectly acceptable. When playing 14-16 NT, open 1N on this pattern when in range. Ditto to stronger 4441s, I would open 1N then treat them as balanced.

 

Option 1: I like the 2♥ and 2♠ openers. The option to show (43)15s as a 3 suiter short in ♦ instead of a 1 or 2 suiter with ♣ is a big plus IMO. I'm not too keen on 2NT as weak with both minors, it gives the opps an extra double, at least 2 extra cuebids and a lot of info about your cards.

 

Options 2 and 3 are interesting, I have no experience of them. I suspect that to be worthy of inclusion, they need to improve your auctions after a 1♦ opener. Option 3 would mean that 1♦:1X, 2♣ would promise a canape, 1♦:1♠, 2♦ would promise 4♥ and 1♦:1♥, 2♦ could be used as some kind of heart raise - a good raise, a 3 trump raise, an unbalanced raise, an unbalanced 3 trump raise... Option 2 I am less keen on, the 2M openers will sometimes lead to overcompeting and they don't seem to offer many improvements after a 1♦ opener - 1♦:1♥, 1♠ would promise a balanced hand, but that is about it. There will be many inferences from both methods in competitive auctions that I haven't considered.

 

Option 4: I don't like transfer preempts. If you are preempting on trash it is to get in the way of the opps, giving them 2 doubles and a low level cuebid isn't the way to do this.

 

Option 6: I play this at the moment. I like them quite constructive (6-10 or so) so that partner can rely on me having an 11 count opposite when I open at the 1 level, particularly important playing 2/1 IMO.

 

I'd probably go for 1 or 6.

 

However, an option 7 has just occured to me :) How about a 2♠ opener showing at least 5-4 in the minors? 2NT is then available as 'bid your longer minor', 2♣ can promise 6♣ or 5♣4M and you can use 1♦-1X, 2♣ as whatever you want!

[whereagles]

Just use those 2D/H/S for 5-card weak twos. Quite the annoyance bid lol.

[Chamaco]

I would like to add another possibility I read of.

Some people do play 2NT opener to show 5-5 in a major, and among them some do it to show a weak hand, others to show a "normal" 55M opener.

 

Comments ?

[inquiry]

I would like to add another possibility I read of.

Some people do play 2NT opener to show 5-5 in a major, and among them some do it to show a weak hand, others to show a "normal" 55M opener.

 

Comments ?

Wasted.. open 1♠ rebid some number of hearts... you ahve the master suits, why rush... There just has to be better uses for 2NT...

[Chamaco]

Use 2NT as the minor two suiter, opening hand.

 

Use 1♦-1 yak, 2♣ as primarily clubs, not promising much if anything in diamonds

Hi Ben ! :-)

 

All is fine (sort of :) ) if 2NT used for 55m hands

 

"minor two suiter " does it include 5431 and 5422 hands ?

 

 

Say I have 5 diamonds and 4 clubs and 12 hcp, what is the plan ?

If I bid 1D then 2 clubs I am not promising much in diamonds, according to this scheme, so pard won't find a safe 5-3 diamonds fit.

 

Maybe other problems may arise for hands with 5C and 4diamonds ?

[MickyB]

I would like to add another possibility I read of.

Some people do play 2NT opener to show 5-5 in a major, and among them some do it to show a weak hand, others to show a "normal" 55M opener.

 

Comments ?

I don't like it either. You aren't causing the opps any problems (they only have one likely game, 3NT) and it is dangerous. If you use relay responses to 1M then it is nice to have this shape out of the 1♠ opener, then the continuations after 1♥ and 1♠ openers are identical, but even then it is of dubious value.

[Cascade]

I would like to add another possibility I read of.

Some people do play 2NT opener to show 5-5 in a major, and among them some do it to show a weak hand, others to show a "normal" 55M opener.

 

Comments ?

I was about to write that anyone who plays 2NT as weak in the minors and does not have another bid to show the majors should consider changing to 2NT weak in the majors.

 

2NT weak in the majors has about the same downside as 2NT weak in the minors but a much bigger upside.

 

The downside is that you are forcing the partnership to the 3-level without a known safe place to play. Perhaps you will get caught at 3-Maj slightly more often.

 

The upside is that you get slightly more pre-emption from Majors - 2NT P 3H/S is more pre-emptive than 2NT P 3C/D and the real big upside is that a major suit game is more likely than a minor suit game.

 

I have been playing this style for years and like it although its frequency is relatively low.

 

Just my 2c.

[MickyB]

2NT weak in the majors has about the same downside as 2NT weak in the minors but a much bigger upside.

 

The downside is that you are forcing the partnership to the 3-level without a known safe place to play.  Perhaps you will get caught at 3-Maj slightly more often.

While I agree that it is definitely the better constructive bid...

 

Over 2N weak with both minors, the opps will usually have a major fit and are likely to investigate a major suit game. In the event that they take you for a number, you may get a decent board due to them being able to make 4M.

 

Over 2N weak with both majors, they are much less likely to have game on. Hence they are more likely to take you for a number, and less likely to have missed a game when they do.

 

Would 2N as the strong 4441 work?

[MickyB]

Use 1♦-1 yak, 2♣ as primarily clubs, not promising much if anything in diamonds

I don't get this Ben, most of the hands with primary clubs are being opened 2♣.

[pclayton]

As per a previous thread; a 3♣ opener to show the weak 5-5 minor hand is tactically better than 2N. LHO doesn't have 'free ride' on the 1st round as it can get passed out. And, 2N gives the opponents TWO cue bids.

 

2N can be used to be the strong (or weak minor) preempt, with 3♣ / 3♦ being the inverse. Or, it can be blended into some of the transfer preempt openings you are considering.

[inquiry]

Use 1♦-1 yak, 2♣ as primarily clubs, not promising much if anything in diamonds

I don't get this Ben, most of the hands with primary clubs are being opened 2♣.

I follow Power Precison teaching on what a two club opening bid is. There are a lot of hands with five clubs that don'tlive up to a 2♣ opening bid. So I open these 1♦ and then rebid 2♣s'.

 

Ben

[pclayton]

Use 1♦-1 yak, 2♣ as primarily clubs, not promising much if anything in diamonds

I don't get this Ben, most of the hands with primary clubs are being opened 2♣.

I follow Power Precison teaching on what a two club opening bid is. There are a lot of hands with five clubs that don'tlive up to a 2♣ opening bid. So I open these 1♦ and then rebid 2♣s'.

 

Ben

I still prefer 1♦ - 1x - 2♣ to be at least 5-4; lengths undetermined. If your system forces you to open a very short diamond; you will be in a position to either raise partner's major on 4315 or 3415 or rebid 1N on 3325's.

[jtfanclub]

I follow Power Precison teaching on what a two club opening bid is. There are a lot of hands with five clubs that don'tlive up to a 2♣ opening bid. So I open these 1♦ and then rebid 2♣s'.

 

Ben

Can you give us an example of a hand that should rebid 2 clubs rather than 1NT?

[whereagles]

I hate the 2C opener anyway. The reason why I prefer precision with 4-card majors is that in such context you can BIN the 2C opener (dump everything into the 1D).

[the hog]

Suggest 2S to show a weak pre empt in either minor or 5/5 Majors. This is a HUGE bid and has gained us heaps. You may not be allowed to play it in Italy however.

 

If you are, then you can play 2N for the minors and 3C/D as constructive. Playing 2N for the minors as I have pointed out elswhere is theoretically inferior to playing 3C minors, but you don't want to open 2N with a constructive C pre empt when your most likeley game contract will be 3N.

 

Ron

[the hog]

"The reason why I prefer precision with 4-card majors "

 

This is an oxymoron.

[whereagles]

What does that mean?

[the hog]

An oxymoron is the coupling of two things that are totally incompatible. For example George Bush and intelligent. In this case "Precision", and "4 card Majors". If you are playing a 4 card M big C system then you are NOT playing Precision. Precision is defined as a 5 card Major, big C system.

[whereagles]

lol.. bush and intelligent. couldn't think of a better example.