inverted raise?

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjhq82dak62ct873&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp?]133|200[/hv]

[S2000magic]

2♦. You want to hear where partner's high cards are for notrump.

[masse24]

Absolutely

[neilkaz]

Yes 2♦ for me as well.

[quiddity]

I usually just bid 2NT (balanced invite) with this sort of hand. Maybe I'm biased by the fact that I hate my inverted minor follow-ups.

[mike777]

I usually just bid 2NT (balanced invite) with this sort of hand. Maybe I'm biased by the fact that I hate my inverted minor follow-ups.

 

 

ditto

[Flem72]

ditto

 

Well, what the heck are they?

 

I have always hated 'stops up the line' b/c it advertises the lead and occupies the 2M calls with a concentration kind of call, rather than a shape kind of call. I've always been a WNTer, and after studying "Washington Standard" to better accomodate my (overwhelmingly) SNT partners, was happy to see that those guys, who seem to uncdrstand SNT about as well as anyone, advocated 'hand type' responses: Just bid 2N with the balanced min, and 3m with the unbalanced min. Now, 2M is forward-going and shape showing.

Mo' bettuh.

 

Regards and Happy Trails,

 

Scott Needham

Boulder, Colorado, USA

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I usually just bid 2NT (balanced invite) with this sort of hand. Maybe I'm biased by the fact that I hate my inverted minor follow-ups.

You may recall, it was a thread regarding Inverted Minors where Ken Rexford made this priceless comment:

"Stoppers are for losers" .... ( In other words, if the point count is there, just bid [some level of] NT ).

[aguahombre]

We like our inverted minor follow-ups; but Quiddity's invitational 2NT still seems about right. We try to avoid the inverted 2m on 4-card support, anyway. This one is really notrumpish. Second choice would be a serious downgrade 1NT, but that seems a bit too pessimistic.

[Cyberyeti]

Inverted minor for me, we use 2N as a 5-8 5 card raise (of a min 4 card diamond) so that's not available to us.

[Codo]

I use 2 NT as 11-12 balanced. Bridge can be easy if you have a hand that fits to your system. Second choice would be a very light 3 Nt, an inverted minors 2 ♦ is reserved for non NT hands or for hands which are too strong to bid them directly.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjhq82dak62ct873&w=s6432haj6dq7ckq62&n=sak98ht5djt83caj4&e=st75hk9743d954c95&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

We wrong sided the 3N contract and got the killer heart lead. In my ideal world, 2♦ does not deny a 4cM so North bids 2♠/2♦

and South gets the contract.

[mike777]

did isay i bid 2nt? yes

 

 

at times it wins...lets not forget that....at times..

[Cthulhu D]

Results merchanting a bit, but playing better minor 2NT is better, but!

 

Playing a short club would any of you swing in favour of 2D? If partner rates to have 5 diamonds, IMHO the inverted minor raise looks a lot better. (for me this auction goes 1C-2NT, 3NT and we luck out, but that's just random system swings, if one of the small spades a diamond I'd bid 2D and then we'd go off).

[P_Marlowe]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjhq82dak62ct873&w=s6432haj6dq7ckq62&n=sak98ht5djt83caj4&e=st75hk9743d954c95&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

We wrong sided the 3N contract and got the killer heart lead. In my ideal world, 2♦ does not deny a 4cM so North bids 2♠/2♦

and South gets the contract.

As far as I understand, 3NT showes stopper in both majors, and as far as I can make it out

North has no stopper in heart.

This does not mean, 3NT is bad, but that 2D was not the bid, that made 100% sure, that you

played NT from North.

 

Regarding 2NT vs 2D, both bids are ok, if you regular open light, 2D is clear cut.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

Our 2♦ doesn't deny 4M, so we'd bid 1♦-2♦-2♠-3N except that we play a weak NT so move a card across to get that auction, we'd wrongside it 1N-3N.

 

That said this is blatant results merchanting, reverse the heart holdings and see which side wrongsides it, small to the ace and J back pinning the 10. While somebody might find the J from AJx, they'll find it much more often in a problem than at the table.

[Codo]

I never understood the idea to put 4 card majors in your inverted minor raise. You overload a loaded bid and what exactly is the advantage?

 

Anyway, 3 NT was a blast. This is in any given system a 2 ♠ bid to show the stopper and the weakness in hearts.

[jillybean]

I never understood the idea to put 4 card majors in your inverted minor raise. You overload a loaded bid and what exactly is the advantage?

 

Anyway, 3 NT was a blast. This is in any given system a 2 ♠ bid to show the stopper and the weakness in hearts.

I think slam bidding is simpler after 1m 2m* 2M and responder discovers a double fit. If the bidding starts 1m 1M 2M it is difficult to show the minor fit which could be the better slam.

[ArtK78]

I would bid 2NT. I have a balanced 12 count. 2NT shows a balanced 11-12 count.

 

Besides, I play that an inverted minor suit raise is game forcing, and that a jump shift in the other minor is an invitational raise in the minor suit. Furthermore, a minor suit raise shows 5 unless you just cannot come up with a better call (i.e., x AJx KQJx xxxxx would be an invitational raise of a 1♦ opening bid). So the option of a 2♦ bid on these cards is not available to me.

[Cyberyeti]

I never understood the idea to put 4 card majors in your inverted minor raise. You overload a loaded bid and what exactly is the advantage?

 

Anyway, 3 NT was a blast. This is in any given system a 2 ♠ bid to show the stopper and the weakness in hearts.

The advantage mainly plays out in the context of weak no trump 4 card major 4 card minor type systems I think. We play our inverted minors only F3m btw.

 

It means that there are very few decent hands with 4 card support for partner's minor that you don't raise immediately, giving big inferences in the later auction where you show exactly 3 card support. I think the only hand for us where we don't raise immediately is one with 5M/4m and either 10-11 points or failing to meet the suit requirements for 1m-2M which are Qxxx or better in the minor and 2 of the top 3, 3 of the top 5 in the major.

 

It also helps to play 1♣-2♣-2♦ as an enquiry if you do this.

[phil_20686]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjhq82dak62ct873&w=s6432haj6dq7ckq62&n=sak98ht5djt83caj4&e=st75hk9743d954c95&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

We wrong sided the 3N contract and got the killer heart lead. In my ideal world, 2♦ does not deny a 4cM so North bids 2♠/2♦

and South gets the contract.

 

Its not exactly trivial to make by south either.

 

Suppose there is a spade lead, didnt look too closely but it looks like the normal line is to unblock the spades play a club to the ace (as worried about a heart through), and bank on the diamond finesse working. when it loses declarer will have only 3d 4s 1c.

[aguahombre]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqjhq82dak62ct873&w=s6432haj6dq7ckq62&n=sak98ht5djt83caj4&e=st75hk9743d954c95&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1dp2dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

We wrong sided the 3N contract and got the killer heart lead. In my ideal world, 2♦ does not deny a 4cM so North bids 2♠/2♦

and South gets the contract.

Forgetting for a moment where we should or should not end up, on this hand ---The big idea of inverted minors is to allow room to explore with the better responding hands. This purpose is greatly defeated when we add the possibility of a major-suit contract into the mix. Determining the right level and whether to be in NT or the minor is plenty.

 

The benefits of inverted minors are even more diluted, if continuations are undiscussed. That jump to 3NT is from another world; any reasonable continuations should involve using the space available to probe for the correct strain and level. One possibility for the jump to 3NT would be to describe a balanced 18-19. This jump to 3NT described nothing other than that the opener wanted to hog the hand as declarer, no matter whether the contract was diamonds or Notrump.

[S2000magic]

We try to avoid the inverted 2m on 4-card support, anyway.

Way too many years ago I did an analysis on opening bids in a 5-card-major, better minor (either WNT or SNT) setting. I don't recall the statistics exactly, but I do recall that a 1♦ opener in more likely to be a 4-carder than an 3-carder, and a 1♣ opener is, interestingly, more likely to be a 5-carder than a 3-carder. I, for one, wouldn't think twice about raising 1♦ to 2♦ on 4-card support (as long as the rest of the hand is appropriate).

[aguahombre]

Way too many years ago I did an analysis on opening bids in a 5-card-major, better minor (either WNT or SNT) setting. I don't recall the statistics exactly, but I do recall that a 1♦ opener in more likely to be a 4-carder than an 3-carder, and a 1♣ opener is, interestingly, more likely to be a 5-carder than a 3-carder. I, for one, wouldn't think twice about raising 1♦ to 2♦ on 4-card support (as long as the rest of the hand is appropriate).

It is not about the frequency 1m contains more than three. It is about how to handle the auction when partner does have less than four, and prefering to show notrumpish hands by bidding nt even with four-card support for the minor. Oh, and that other little thing: sometimes regardless of partner's number in the suit it is nice for her to know I have 5+.

 

This is a preference thing, not any dogma on my part.

[phil_20686]

The benefits of inverted minors are even more diluted, if continuations are undiscussed. That jump to 3NT is from another world; any reasonable continuations should involve using the space available to probe for the correct strain and level. One possibility for the jump to 3NT would be to describe a balanced 18-19. This jump to 3NT described nothing other than that the opener wanted to hog the hand as declarer, no matter whether the contract was diamonds or Notrump.

 

The largest benefit of putting hands with a 4cM and longer diamonds into the inverted minor, is that after 1d-1s-1n, I do not have to deal with GF hands with 4s and longer diamonds, which are often tricky. If you think this auction is more overloaded than 1d-2d, then it makes sense to put hands like Axxx x KQTxxx Ax into the inverted minor.

 

There are also benefits on hands where you have an actual good diamond fit, as opener has more room to describe his hand than is possible after 1d-1m-2d-... and many people have poor continuation structures on this auction.

 

I prefer a structure where GF hands start of by bidding their longest suit. I dont think the differences are so large that one is clearly better than the other, but if I were pushed I would say that I think bidding inverted minor with hands where diamonds are longer than spades (but not equal length) is beneficial on the whole.