A theoretical question from JEc match #2

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&w=skq86hq862dq94c63&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp2cp2d3c3n4c]133|200[/hv]

 

Expert pd, team game, not many agreements except than common sense. You dont even know if we play 2♥ as 2nd neg ot not. You may not choose 2♦ (perhaps 2NT ? ) but assume you did for the sake of topic.

 

My question is, what is our best bid here ?

 

Please explain if u believe pass is forcing and why, and if not forcing for you then why not, or why DBL shd be penalty or take-out. What are u planning to do over pd's expected responses depending on what u choosed now.

 

Thanks.

[gnasher]

When partner bid 3NT, he announced that he had the high-card values for game. When our side has shown the high-card values for game, pass is forcing. The fact that these values are all in the same hand doesn't change anything.

 

Even if he hadn't bid 3NT, the 2♣ opening set up a forcing pass in all sequences. Although 2♣ isn't an absolute game-force, the one non-game-forcing hand-type - 22-24 balanced - is so strong that we would never want to defend something undoubled.

 

When pass is forcing but we haven't agreed a suit, doubles are for penalties and pass suggests not defending. Hence I pass.

 

If partner now bids a suit (4♦, probably), I'd like to bid Keycard, with a view to bidding a grand slam opposite the right top cards. Is that what 4NT means? Dunno.

 

If partner doubles 4♣, it might be right to leave it in. They won't have much apart from ♣KQ, so it's probably going for 800 or 1100. However, the fact that he bid 3NT rather than doubling 3♣ suggests a fairly offensive hand. If he has something like AJ AKx AKJxx Axx we still have a grand slam.

 

Partner will have no idea that this is a possibility - he's expecting us to have about a 4-count with a singleton club, and he thinks that the decision facing our partnership is whether to defend 4♣ or bid game. If he doubles, I think I should suggest a grand-slam, somehow. Presumably pass and pull to 6NT is a grand-slam try - what else can it be?

[ArtK78]

Assuming that 2♦ was negative or waiting, partner's 3NT call could be based on his belief that he has 9 playing tricks on a club lead. His club stopper could be QJx. Something like:

 

AJ

AK

AKJTxx

QJx

 

(I know - what do the opps have to bid up to 4♣ on a combined 8 clubs to the AK? That is not my problem).

 

So pass and pull to 6NT might not be the best tactic.

 

I think an immediate 4NT call is best. It shows that you have values for your 2♦ call, but doesn't commit the partnership to slam. Partner should be in a better position to know if there is a slam.

[billw55]

It is hard to imagine a card partner needs that I don't have. 6NT

[MrAce]

When partner bid 3NT, he announced that he had the high-card values for game. When our side has shown the high-card values for game, pass is forcing. The fact that these values are all in the same hand doesn't change anything.

 

Even if he hadn't bid 3NT, the 2♣ opening set up a forcing pass in all sequences. Although 2♣ isn't an absolute game-force, the one non-game-forcing hand-type - 22-24 balanced - is so strong that we would never want to defend something undoubled.

 

When pass is forcing but we haven't agreed a suit, doubles are for penalties and pass suggests not defending. Hence I pass.

 

If partner now bids a suit (4♦, probably), I'd like to bid Keycard, with a view to bidding a grand slam opposite the right top cards. Is that what 4NT means? Dunno.

 

If partner doubles 4♣, it might be right to leave it in. They won't have much apart from ♣KQ, so it's probably going for 800 or 1100. However, the fact that he bid 3NT rather than doubling 3♣ suggests a fairly offensive hand. If he has something like AJ AKx AKJxx Axx we still have a grand slam.

 

Partner will have no idea that this is a possibility - he's expecting us to have about a 4-count with a singleton club, and he thinks that the decision facing our partnership is whether to defend 4♣ or bid game. If he doubles, I think I should suggest a grand-slam, somehow. Presumably pass and pull to 6NT is a grand-slam try - what else can it be?

 

See, at the moment i believed (rightly or wrongly) my 2♦ already showed 4+ hcp, and that my pass over 4♣ promised extras.

[gszes]

The mere fact that I pass vs x should suggest

some useful values to p (lets say at least 4 at

least 2 queens) with less I have to x)

 

That means I can bid

4n with 8-9

6n with 10-11

5n with 12-13

more just bid 7n and blame p if its wrong

 

if we pass and are balanced p knows we are

in the 4-7 range and we will pass if p x 4c.

 

All ranges of balanced hands are covered this way

and we can use pass and pull or bidding suits to

show suit oriented hands and differentiate btn

weak vs slam oriented hands.

 

on the given hand over 4c I would just bid

 

4n

[Codo]

This hand is hard to bid with no agreement. After all, you did not promise anything with your 2♦ bid- this could have been done with zero points, as you had no agreement about 2♥.

 

I would bid 6 NT. I do not care about a missing a grand slam, I would be happy if partner makes a small slam...

[MrAce]

Seems like everyone wants to bid 6 NT one way or another.

 

 

6 NT can be made, but i think it is not as good as 6♥

 

Pd holds

 

Ax

AKJTxx

Ax

KJx

 

You have 9 top major tricks and need to produce 3 more from minors Qxx vs Ax ♦ and xx vs KJx ♣. In 6♥ all u need is to guess the ♣. In 6 NT even if u survive the ♣ guess that brings you to 11 tricks.

 

At the table i passed and then passed again the DBL. We collected +500, this could be +980 or -50

 

3♣ bidder had xx void JTxxx Axxxxx

[gnasher]

I don't think partner should double. The pass invites him to bid if he's got a more offensive hand than he has promised so far, and that's what he does have. If responder had xxxx xxxx xxxx x, 4♥ would be almost cold, and 4♣ would be 1-2 off. On a bad day 4♣ might be making with 4♥ one down.

 

When 4♣ comes around to him, opener should bid 4♥. Now we can Keycard our way to slam (opposite a major, I don't think there's any doubt about what 4NT means).

[MrAce]

I don't think partner should double. The pass invites him to bid if he's got a more offensive hand than he has promised so far, and that's what he does have. If responder had xxxx xxxx xxxx x, 4♥ would be almost cold, and 4♣ would be 1-2 off. On a bad day 4♣ might be making with 4♥ one down.

 

When 4♣ comes around to him, opener should bid 4♥. Now we can Keycard our way to slam (opposite a major, I don't think there's any doubt about what 4NT means).

 

 

Thats what i was exactly wondering, i also thought at some point one of us needs to show a suit and AKJTxx is a good suit to start doing this.

[lesh]

[hv=pc=n&w=skq86hq862dq94c63&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp2cp2d3c3n4c]133|200[/hv]

 

Expert pd, team game, not many agreements except than common sense. You dont even know if we play 2♥ as 2nd neg ot not. You may not choose 2♦ (perhaps 2NT ? ) but assume you did for the sake of topic.

 

My question is, what is our best bid here ?

 

Please explain if u believe pass is forcing and why, and if not forcing for you then why not, or why DBL shd be penalty or take-out. What are u planning to do over pd's expected responses depending on what u choosed now.

 

Thanks.

 

I would Dbl. I think DBL should be t/o and pass is forcing to DBL which would either be passed or make a bid showing slam try interest. If partner is not interested in doubling I think he would just bid what he has.

[Zelandakh]

I would Dbl. I think DBL should be t/o and pass is forcing to DBL which would either be passed or make a bid showing slam try interest. If partner is not interested in doubling I think he would just bid what he has.

You expect PDI to be on given the conditions outlined in the OP?!!

[cloa513]

The 3NT could be bid with all types of off-shape hands including ♠A ♥AKJx ♦ AKJ10xx ♣Ax so no need to commit to any particular contract bid 4NT or 5C.

[ArtK78]

I would Dbl. I think DBL should be t/o and pass is forcing to DBL which would either be passed or make a bid showing slam try interest. If partner is not interested in doubling I think he would just bid what he has.

Sorry, I don't agree.

 

Pass is clearly forcing, so it acts as a takeout double. Double says that we have bid enough, lets take what we can get here.

 

As I stated above, I would not pass here since I think we have a slam. But double is just not in the picture.

[PhilKing]

Sorry, I don't agree.

 

Pass is clearly forcing, so it acts as a takeout double. Double says that we have bid enough, lets take what we can get here.

 

As I stated above, I would not pass here since I think we have a slam. But double is just not in the picture.

 

PDI just inverts the two calls - it adds up to much the same thing and gives more defintion to pass and pull autions. There is nothing to disagree with.

[Zelandakh]

PDI just inverts the two calls - it adds up to much the same thing and gives more defintion to pass and pull autions. There is nothing to disagree with.

Given the OP:-

Expert pd, team game, not many agreements except than common sense. You dont even know if we play 2♥ as 2nd neg ot not.

 

...I think there is plenty to disagree with thinking PDI would be in play.

[PhilKing]

Given the OP:-

 

 

...I think there is plenty to disagree with thinking PDI would be in play.

 

I could be wrong, but I assumed Lesh was just ignoring the conditions stated in the OP and saying that PDI was better than standard here and that Art was saying he was basically wrong.

 

I agree it's barking mad to assume PDI undiscussed.

[Vampyr]

Would someone please tell what PDI means?

 

I'm guessing Pass/Double Iversion, but trying to figure out what exactly that means is making my head hurt (or is it the large quantities of red wine?)

[barmar]

I think PDI = swapping the normal meanings of pass and double in a forcing pass situation.