tysen2k Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Forgive some rambling here. Let’s talk a little bit about bidding theory. What is the point of opening vs. passing? Traditionally it has been to show strength. If your hand is stronger than “x” you open and if it’s weaker then you pass. Sure there are preemptive bids but since in most systems you are opening constructively like 10x as often as you preempt, that’s pretty minor. Strength is the main consideration. Goren estimated that you needed 26 points for game so he said open with 13 since if you and your partner pass with 12 each you haven’t missed a game. Our thinking has evolved a little beyond this but not much. To me this is very 2-handed bridge thinking and not 4-handed bridge. To me the point of opening is to get in the first punch and describe myself as quickly as possible. Auctions can often be competitive and if you haven’t described yourself when you had a chance, you may fall behind. With that in mind, it seems like the more competitive an auction is likely to be, the more likely we should open. If we could predict that an auction would be competitive, then we should open almost regardless of points. If we could predict that it would not be very competitive, then it won’t really hurt to take the slow road. Unfortunately we can’t know 100% if an auction will be competitive, but we can estimate the likelihood. I can’t think of a better indicator for the chance of a competitive auction than total tricks. If there are a lot of total tricks available, it’s much more likely to be competitive. For any hand we have, we can estimate the average number of total tricks. You can do simulations and find that total tricks vary greatly by our shape and almost not at all by our strength. No big surprise there. Pattern Ave Tot Tricks 4-3-3-3 16.21 4-4-3-2 16.42 5-3-3-2 16.62 4-4-4-1 16.79 5-4-2-2 16.85 5-4-3-1 17.01 6-3-2-2 17.21 6-3-3-1 17.35 5-5-2-1 17.50 5-4-4-0 17.58 6-4-2-1 17.61 5-5-3-0 17.85 7-2-2-2 17.88 6-4-3-0 17.92 7-3-2-1 18.05 6-5-1-1 18.33 7-3-3-0 18.36 6-5-2-0 18.50 7-4-1-1 18.51 7-4-2-0 18.64 Since passing is going to be our most frequent “opening” it will provide the least information. What if we were to pass all of the hands that were least likely to be involved in a competitive auction? For you system designers out there, try this on for size: Pass = 0-37 balanced Every hand that is unbalanced and likely to find competition is now opened and you have a head start. If you can design the rest of your system around this and put shape before strength, you can compete more effectively. Each of your opening bids will carry a lot more shape information and partner can use that and the LAW to his advantage. If the auction turns out to be non-competitive, you can slow down and figure out how high to go based on strength later. Is the 0-37 Pass vulnerable to preemption? I don’t think so. Your hand has the same average strength as an unknown hand, so 2nd seat shouldn’t preempt any more than he does in 1st seat. In fact he should preempt less often since your hand is defense oriented, there are less likely to be a high number of total tricks out there. The LAW tells him to be cautious. The 0-37 Pass is forcing of course. If we have the balance of strength, we should have a decent amount of bidding space to find out where we belong. If the auction does turn competitive, then partner still has a lot of LAW information. That’s information you don’t have over a standard pass. A system built this way would have a lot of LAW information over both opening bids and passes. Has anyone ever encountered an opening Pass similar to this before? Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 If we have the balance of strength, we should have a decent amount of bidding space to find out where we belong. If the auction does turn competitive, then partner still has a lot of LAW information. That’s information you don’t have over a standard pass. A system built this way would have a lot of LAW information over both opening bids and passes. Has anyone ever encountered an opening Pass similar to this before? Tysen Forgive me, since I'm not an advanced player.... The 0-37 Pass is forcing of course. Why? If your partner has 0-4 hcp, no A, K, or QJ as a set, and you're both balanced, it'll take an incredible number of points in your hand to make any sort of game. If you're frightened of the fact that once a year you'll end up passing with a cold 3NT, reserve the 3NT for those hands. I don't think it's necessary though- for every time you miss 3NT, your opponents will bid an unmakable 6NT because they have the HCP but no shape. The 37 hcp hand can probably open 7NT...I doubt you were using that bid for anything else. :) I suspect you've overloaded the openings of one of a suit, though I don't know that. You open with 1 spade, your LHO bids 2 hearts, what do your partner's responses mean? Keep in mind that the opponents get to hear your LOTT information too, so if what he tells you is the size of your fit you've told the opponents as much as you've told each other irt LOTT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Well I agree with most of your analysis, but have two remarks , first games and slam do matter more then partsoce, its not right to totally ignore it, second forcing pass are valid systems and many thinks they are better then std bidding, but since its not allowed anywhere its maybe better to spend the time on other espects of the game, atleast that what i prefer to do myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted October 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 The 0-37 Pass is forcing of course. Why? If your partner has 0-4 hcp, no A, K, or QJ as a set, and you're both balanced, it'll take an incredible number of points in your hand to make any sort of game.Well, practically forcing then. You open with 1 spade, your LHO bids 2 hearts, what do your partner's responses mean? Keep in mind that the opponents get to hear your LOTT information too, so if what he tells you is the size of your fit you've told the opponents as much as you've told each other irt LOTT. I haven't designed a full system to go with this sort of pass, but I would assume that you'd be able to create opening bids that have more description than in standard methods. Maybe our 1♠ opener is "5+ spades and 4+ minor" or "4+ spades, 0-2 hearts" or something. You should be able to get something to work. Yes, the opps hear some LOTT info, but you've got 1 step in front of them. Anyway, just wanted to get some conversation going, not trying to preach that this is the end-all of bidding. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Well I agree with most of your analysis, but have two remarks , first games and slam do matter more then partsoce, its not right to totally ignore it, second forcing pass are valid systems and many thinks they are better then std bidding, but since its not allowed anywhere its maybe better to spend the time on other espects of the game, atleast that what i prefer to do myself.True, but I don't think this totally ignores games and slams. But maybe it is more suitable for a matchpoints system. I've been thinking about how to convert this type theory into something that's legal in most places. You'd have to adjust it a bit for ACBL, but I think this would be legal: Pass = 0-16 balanced, 0-7 any 4441. This wouldn't be a forcing pass and you would still bid all of your strong hands giving you extra help for those games and slams. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 I've been thinking about how to convert this type theory into something that's legal in most places. You'd have to adjust it a bit for ACBL, but I think this would be legal: Pass = 0-16 balanced, 0-7 any 4441. This wouldn't be a forcing pass and you would still bid all of your strong hands giving you extra help for those games and slams. :) I think it could be right, and a great idea. but you must pass with 0-7 even if unbalanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Did i mention i really like this idea :) I have tried to delelop systems with light opening, but somehow didnt think of passing strong balanced in first seat, this could add some power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 I think it could be right, and a great idea. but you must pass with 0-7 even if unbalanced. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's any ACBL rule keeping you from using 2♣/2♦/2♥/2♠ to show 0-7 and a five+ card suit (with or without a second suit). The reason why I brought it up, Tysen, is because *almost* forcing pass is legal in most places. If there's anything illegal about passing 0-20 balanced and opening 21+ balanced 3NT I'd like to see it. You're still going to have the issue that you need at least 8 hcp to open at one of a suit, even 3rd or 4th hand, but that's doable. If you know your partner's balanced, nothing wrong with opening with your suit at the two level intending to play there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 unfortunetly this too isnt legel at WBF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's any ACBL rule keeping you from using 2♣/2♦/2♥/2♠ to show 0-7 and a five+ card suit (with or without a second suit). That's right. That's one of the reasons I limited pass to 0-16 since there is no bid available for a 4441 with 0-7, even in 3rd seat. You aren't allowed to bid anything. Passing a 7HCP 4441 isn't that bad even if partner has 16. Plus 4th hand may open and either partner can jump back in. I was thinking of using all 2x bids as EHAA style 5-6 in suit. The evil ACBL does put a 7-point range on the weak-2 though, so you could do 1-7 HCP and if you're happened to be dealt a 0 HCP hand you either have to pass or bid 3. This might put too much pressure on the 1-bids. Since very low HCP hands are much more rare, perhaps a better weak 2 range is 4-10, forcing you to pass or bid 3 if you have 0-3 HCP. Then 1-bids are 11+ (always unbalanced) and so are actually quite sound openings. Tysen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysen2k Posted October 29, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Did i mention i really like this idea :) I have tried to delelop systems with light opening, but somehow didnt think of passing strong balanced in first seat, this could add some power.It's growing on me too. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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