Bidding - Convention (Query)

[relknes]

 

8) To me as a beginner it rather seems there is little scope for free action in bridge. Every piece of the game (to be played well) is pre-determined by rules (convention, bidding, playing tricks). So what bridge really is about as far as I am concerned - just to master bidding system and conventions a get a partner who also mastered the system - so you have the best chances regardless of the hand dealt. Am I wrong?

 

 

This is not true for a number of reasons.

First, as some have already mentioned, you have the flexability to bend the rules when your experience tells you that it is warrented (which often falls under the title of "upgrading" or "downgrading" your hand because of things like suit quality, shapeliness, controls, quacks, etc).

Second, there are often multiple bids that will describe your hand, and your experience will tell you which bid is more likely to help your partner make the correct decision, or lead to fewer complications later on, etc.

Some of these are prety cut and dry. For instance, most people would recognize that with a 5 card major and a 5 card minor, it is better to open the major (fewer rebid problems, more descriptive, more relevant to the likely final contract, etc)

Others are such complicated questions that even experts don't always agree. For instance, with a 5 card major and a balanced hand, is it better to open 1M or 1N? This requires a lot more experience, and the correct answer will depend on your system, the suit quality of your major, controls vs slow tricks... the list goes on.

So there is actually quite a bit of scope for "Free action" for players who have a good grasp of bidding, but most people seem to think that beginners are best off learning as few exceptions as possible in order to simplify the bidding. This is why some teachers will teach "always open 1M with a 5 card major and opening values" or "Always open 1N when you are in the point range and have a balanced hand". Chances are neither is correct 100% of the time, but the gains from simplicity are usually thought to outweigh the gains from flexability, at least until the player is advanced enough to make useful judgements.

[Cthulhu D]

Yeah, my observation would be that while it's super important to start out learning the 'rules' the next thing you learn is that the rules are flexible, murky and require judgement.

[Lesh18]

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

[S2000magic]

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

Generally, an ace is counted at two controls, a king as one. It's not the same as a stopper.

[S2000magic]

Back in Sheinwold's day, you "needed" 26 HCP for a NT game. These days you "need" 25, and Meckwell frequently bid (and make) 24 point games. :)

 

If you want a guideline, you should have about 23 HCP to be at the three level in a suit or at 2NT (and if you have 23 HCP and they are at the three level, you should probably double them). You should have about 25 HCP for game in NT or majors, about 28 for game in a minor, about 33 for small slam (because it means they can't have two aces) or 37 for a grand slam. But there are a lot of other factors to keep in mind. It is possible (though extremely unlikely) to make a grand slam with as few as (I think it was) seven points, with the right distribution. Small slams on 27 or even 24 points aren't that uncommon, nor are major suit games on 21 or so.

Back in Sheinwold's day, the general bridge-playing public was told that they needed 26 HCP for game in notrump. However, Kaplan and Sheinwold routinely bid notrump games with 24 and 25 HCP: a weak NT facing a weak NT. They were the Meckwell of their day.

[barmar]

Thank you very much indeed.

 

9) You have mentioned a couple of times that sometimes you need to know whether stick to rules and when to break them. Does it mean using convention and using natural bidding? If so, how can an opponent know then, whether my 2Clubs means a fairly strong hand 22+ HCP or it rather means a natural bidding of clubs: preferred trump and some confidence in power of the hand? Or did you rather mean, that sometimes you cannot follow guidelines like counting cards and assessing opponents' bids, but rather use a common sense? (The latter seems more rational to me). Thanks

Someone else already pointed out that you can't change the meaning of a bid. If it's a convention, partner and opponents will expect the conventional meaning, so you can't use as a natural bid.

 

What we mean is that sometimes you may have to make judgement calls. For instance, in the auction 1♣ 1♥ 2♥, you were probably taught that 2♥ shows 4 hearts (because 1♥ only promises 4, and you normally don't raise unless you have an 8 card fit). But there are some hands where this may be the best bid, because all the other bids have problems. Learning when this is appropriate is part of your growth as a bridge player.

[S2000magic]

For instance, in the auction 1♣ 1♥ 2♥, you were probably taught that 2♥ shows 4 hearts (because 1♥ only promises 4, and you normally don't raise unless you have an 8 card fit). But there are some hands where this may be the best bid with only 3 hearts, because all the other bids have (bigger) problems.

I believe that this is what you intended to emphasize.

[barmar]

In addition to the programs and books that have been recommended, if you're in North America I suggest you join the ACBL. This will give you a subscription to the Bridge Bulletin magazine, which has regular columns containing tips for beginners, intermediate, and advanced players. They address many of the nuances of the game that we've been discussing. If you're not in America, join your country's bridge league, I expect most of them have similar offerings.

 

Your questions are all good, but I think this setting is not the best way to help you understand what makes the game so interesting. You should just start playing, and in time you'll see examples of the things we're talking about. Check if any of your local clubs have games specifically for novices. Or play on BBO -- if you don't want to embarass yourself, play in the B/I Lounge or play with robots.

[Vampyr]

Do you think it ROUGHLY can be used as guidelines for a beginner to quickly learn how to assess the power of the hand? Like, if I have 13 points, I will know that my partner should have 8 points at least for us to make a 1-level contract. 8 points might be ace, king and long suit. Thanks

 

It is not really necessary to try to remember point-count values for low-level contracts. The early rounds of uncontested bidding sequences are mainly aimed at discovering whether the partnership have enough values for game. And if, for instance, it turns out that the values are not there, you can stop bidding -- 2y + 1 scores the same as 3y =.

 

This holds true in rubber bridge too. It seems like you might want to get as big a partscore as possible, but you cannot use the same bids both to explore for game and to add another 30 to the partscore. Also you do not want to get to too high a level and go down instead of scoring some points below the line.

 

Finally, bidding games is in a way more important at rubber bridge than (especially matchpoint) duplicate. Yes, you are correct that you get several tries to convert a partscore, but you would much rather have been in game, if possible, for all of the contracts; also your opponents may score a game, wiping out your partscore. So using a bidding system aimed at reaching games (and there is really no other kind) makes sense in rubber bridge too.

 

EDIt: This last is redundant; it turns out it has been covered thoroughly in OP's other thread.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Yes

#2 Most systems without add. agreemnts would do, base systems already have some conventions

intergrated, that are assumed to be necessary, e.g. Stayman.

#3 Chicago with Russian Scoring

The advantage is, that you have an outside source, that tells you, if the reached contract

is reasonable.

http://www.pagat.com/boston/bridge.html#chicago%20-%20rus

In casual games, if you dont have an experienced player in the round, the only criteria is,

did it make or not.

Chicago will tell you, that going down doubled is sometimes ok.

You need a scoring method, Bridge is only interesting with the scoring, same with Poker.

Playing Poker without Money is pointless.

#4 It is legal, up to a point, but my counter question would be - How do you develop common sense?

If you have no idea, how to make legal calls, what is possible, you will have a hard time, since

you are bound to reinvent the wheel.

You need also players, that stick with you in the wilderness, if a stranger comes in, you have to

teach him, your ideas.

If you want to play with common sense, stick with a base system, be conservative when adding new stuff.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Trinidad]

14) What does a "control" mean? Is it the same as a "stopper" - a high card, usually an ace that prevents opponents from taking successive tricks in that suit?

The term control is used for slam purposes. A control is a holding in a suit that will prevent the opponents from scoring fast tricks. This sounds a little cryptic. I will try to explain.

 

To be able to make a slam, you need to be able to make 12 tricks. This means that the opponents are not allowed to take more than 1. It is not a good idea to be in a slam if the opponents can start by cashing the ♣AK. In that case, you are missing a club control.

There are first and second round controls. A first round control is an ace or a void (in a trump contract): The opponents will not be able to take the first trick in the suit. A second round control is a king or a singleton (in a trump contract): The opponents will not be able to take the first two tricks in the suit. For a small slam, you need 12 tricks and first round control in three suits as well as second round control of the fourth suit.

 

The term stop or stopper is used to see whether our side would be able to play 3NT. A stop means that the opponents cannot run the suit. It is fine if they take the first trick in the suit, or the first two or three, but they cannot rattle of 5 tricks. Therefore, an ace is a single stop (you will get the lead once if the opponents are trying to remove your stop), but so are KQ, QJT and JT98. Additional cards may strengthen the stop: AQJ is a double stop. You also need to be aware that a stop can be positional: AQ is a double stop if you left hand opponent is on lead, but it may only be a single stop of your right hand opponent plays the suit.

 

Rik

[Vampyr]

The term control is used for slam purposes. A control is a holding in a suit that will prevent the opponents from scoring fast tricks. This sounds a little cryptic. I will try to explain.

 

The explanation here is good; you must disregard the post above that claims that an ace is two controls and a king is one. This is a totally different concept used in specific bidding situations, none of which you want to be thinking about. It is a real shame that the word is the same.

[S2000magic]

. . . you must disregard the post above that claims that an ace is two controls and a king is one . . . .

My error: I missed the context of the question. Sorry for sowing confusion.

 

Yes, for slam purposes a control is the ability to prevent the opponents from scoring tricks in a particular suit. A first-round control is an ace (or a void when another suit is trumps) and a second-round control is a king (or a singleton when another suit is trumps).

[RunemPard]

I find the best way to play when just starting is something like...

 

1♣ - 12-19 (4+C)

1♦ - 12-19 (4+D)

1♥ - 12-19 (4+H)

1♠ - 12-19 (4+S)

1N - 15-17 balanced

2♣ - 20+ unbalanced or 22+ balanced

2♦ - 6-11 (6+D)

2♥ - 6-11 (6+H)

2♠ - 6-11 (6+S)

2N - 20-21 balanced

3♣ - 6-11 (7+C) maybe 6+C

3♦ - 6-11 (7+D)

3♥ - 6-11 (7+H)

3♠ - 6-11 (7+S)

3N - 24-25 balanced

 

Very easy to learn...and IMO is what every player should start out with. You can use basic natural bids after 1NT, 2C, or 2NT if you wish.

 

If you wish to try some basic "gadgets"...you can use

 

1N->2C = Stayman 8+ HCP (asks for a 4c major)

1N->2D = transfer to ♥ atleast 5 hearts and any value of points...1NT bidder should always reply 2♥

1N->2H = transfer to ♠ atleast 5 spades and any value of points...1NT bidder should always reply 2♠

1N->2N = 8-9 invite to NT game

 

The same goes for 2NT except 3C is usually 4+ HCP and 3NT is game stop.

 

For 2C responses I suggest a simple 2♦ 0-7 HCP, 2♥/♠ to show 5 cards in major, and 2NT to show 8+ HCP balanced.

Keep it simple and always think of ways to improve.

 

You are also welcome to play with 5 card major 1 openings, but this is not required when learning.

 

Good luck!

 

Don

[RunemPard]

Thought I would also add something about responses...very basic ones to help you determine if you should try game.

 

1♥->1N 6-9(10) HCP 0-2 or 0-3 hearts depending on how many the open promises.

1♥->2♥ 6-9 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.

1♥->3♥ 10-11 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.

1♥->4♥ 12-14 HCP with either 3 or 4 hearts depending on how many the open promises.

1♥->1♠/2♣/2♦ I think you should play these as forcing for now...It is acceptable to bid a new suit even with a fit in the bid suit in hopes of finding a much better hand than the points show. I actually think this is good for any beginner to learn early. (2C/D over a major is a standard 2/1 bid usually promising at least 10 HCP).

1♥->2N 11-14 HCP forcing game in NT. As you learn the game more you can look into Jacoby 2NT over a major suit opening.

 

You can do the same for spades...however, with minors it is usually best to take it slow and try to find a NT or major fit before committing to a minor.

 

Most of all have fun and enjoy.

[Zelandakh]

I find the best way to play when just starting is something like...

Make sure the beginners learn something as bad as possible so that they appreciate how "good" SAYC is when they switch to it?

 

I have taught many beginners to play using basic English Acol and it was very natural and very easy for them. From Opener's side you just have to define balanced, give them a points ladder and tell them a suit order of preference for 4432 shapes (eg: H > S > D). Then with unbalanced hands you define hands as weak, strong or very strong and define rebids accordingly along with rules for 5-5 (6-6) and 4441 hands. On Responders side my method was to give an order of priority for different actions and then a point range for different levels. So Number 1 is "Raise partner's major" with 2M = 6-9, 3M = 10-12, etc.

 

Simple stuff and at least it represent s a proper system rather than the mish-mash of 4-4-4-4 15-17 without guidance on which suits of equals to open. Indeed, if you intend this as a more natural lead-in to American methods I would suggest Swiss Acol (5443) is probably a better base. Incidentally the first beginners book I read taught 5 card major Acol with a 16-18 NT and the first 4 card major system I discovered was Culbertson. I did not find out what "normal" Acol was until many years later when I started to play with real people. Luckily I had managed to reverse-engineer most of it from the above 2 systems so it did not come as such a big shock (although the gadgets my first partner inflicted on me certainly did!)

[RunemPard]

If a true beginner wants to jump into a more complex system, go ahead. I just posted what I started with. There is not really anything wrong with what I gave for a beginner and here in Sweden that is pretty much what any beginner starts out with. Limit raise response, simple 12-14 jump to 4 with nothing special in hand to discuss. Sure 5c majors are better to me as well, but that is for the player to decide as a beginner. Some may prefer playing 4 in all suits starting out.

[Trinidad]

If a true beginner wants to jump into a more complex system, go ahead. I just posted what I started with. There is not really anything wrong with what I gave for a beginner and here in Sweden that is pretty much what any beginner starts out with. Limit raise response, simple 12-14 jump to 4 with nothing special in hand to discuss. Sure 5c majors are better to me as well, but that is for the player to decide as a beginner. Some may prefer playing 4 in all suits starting out.

I used to live in Sweden. The "Modern Standard" system in Sweden has a little more structure than what you showed.

 

This is also exactly what I meant with my earlier post. First start to understand the natural bidding. If you open four card majors, majors first, then diamonds (as in the Swedish Modern Standard system), then you will figure out at some point that if your partner opened with 1♣, he will be exactly 3334 or he will have 5 clubs. IMO, this shouldn't be taught actively; it should be discovered by playing a natural system for a while. Understanding this is much more important than learning Jacoby transfers.

 

Rik