4th suit forcing auction

[MickyB]

1♦:1♠

2♣:2♥

2N:3♣

3♥

 

How do you play this?

[jillybean]

2N natural showing ♥ stopper, 3♣ confirming clubs

3♥ is a cue in support of clubs?

[mike777]

1♦:1♠

2♣:2♥

2N:3♣

3♥

 

How do you play this?

 

 

nonexpert here:

 

 

2h=gf 14+ very good hand, does not promise hearts

2nt very often 11-13 but not 100%, roughly 2=2=5=4....roughly.

3c sets trumps, slam interest.

3h=heart values, does not reset hearts as trumps, pard does not have a diamond cue.

 

 

xx...AJ...QJTxx...KQxx or better but not 14+ with this shape.

[MrAce]

1♦:1♠

2♣:2♥

2N:3♣

3♥

 

How do you play this?

 

To me, after the minor fit is established, bids under 3NT is seeking for the right game, not value showing or slam accepting bids, unless takes another action later to tell me otherwise.

 

I would expect opener to bid 3♠ with all Hx ♠ holdings instead of 3♥ ( Qx Kx AJxxx Kxxx )

 

I would expect opener to bid 3 NT with hands that he thinks 3 NT is best ( x KJx AJxxx QJxx or xx AQ KJxxx QTxx )

 

That pretty much leaves 3♦ and 3♥ bids. Whatever 3♦ doesnt show must be in 3♥ bid including xx♠ and lousy ♥ stopper imo.

[Flameous]

Ace, I think responder here already told otherwise. If he wanted to SO in 3NT after hearing a heart stopper, he should bid it. Thus 3♣ already suggests towards slam. Thus I take 3♥ simply as a cuebid. Whether it denies one in ♦ depends on agreements and style.

 

Mike, what do you suggest opener to do with stronger hands if the max for this is 13 count? I guess it's possible to jump to 3NT with 14+ but that seems quite problematic. I'd at least make a split so that 2NT is min or max and 3NT then is 14-15. Without specific agreements about this kind of sequence, I'd just split my range later with NS3NT.

[gnasher]

I think we're still discussing strains, so it's concentrated hearts rather than a cue-bid. That will sometimes amount to the same thing, but one difference is that it doesn't deny a diamond cue-bid. I'd bid 3♥ with something like x AKJ Axxxx QJxx, for example.

[MickyB]

I think we're still discussing strains, so it's concentrated hearts rather than a cue-bid. That will sometimes amount to the same thing, but one difference is that it doesn't deny a diamond cue-bid. I'd bid 3♥ with something like x AKJ Axxxx QJxx, for example.

 

OK, so if responder's third bid is 3♦ instead of 3♣, presumably 3♥ would still have the same meaning? It feels much better for it to show a weak heart stop, or perhaps just club strength, on that sequence, but it would require rather sophisticated agreements for the two 3♥ bids to have different meanings.

[benlessard]

Its more a guess than anything but at imps I would bid 3C with any hands that I feel that 5C might be better than 3Nt (so over that 3H is some willingness to play in 5C/6C rather than 3nt. Something like good clubs and A of H (rather than soft values).

 

At MP ill bid 3C only with slammish hands so 3H is cheapest cuebid (so denies a D control and show a H control). When responder as a great hand with D shortness he knows that 6C is going to be good

[gnasher]

Assuming what I regard as the English style of FSF, where opener would often have bid 2♠ with 2254, the suit where we're most vulnerable is probably spades. I'm making this up as I go along, but I think that in both sequences:

- 3♠ shows 2254 (unless that was excluded by the 2NT bid).

- 3NT is a suggestion to play there, so implies a singleton spade honour, or something like xx AK in the majors.

- Whatever is left has to cover the hands with a small singleton spade.

 

After responder has bid 3♣, we can split the third category into hands with good diamonds and hands with good hearts. After responder has bid 3♦, we can't, so they all get lumped into 3♥.

[gszes]

3c has no limit however there are many hands where

3n has no play but 5c is a standout ie

KQxx

void

KQx

Qxxxxx

 

bidding 3c over 2n conveys message that we are

concerned about heart suit stopps and asks p to

bid 3n if hearts double stopped. The 3h bid by

opener then not only denies a double stop but

cue bids the ace.

 

this is especially helpful if responder is not

minimum and may be considering slam

[MrAce]

Ace, I think responder here already told otherwise. If he wanted to SO in 3NT after hearing a heart stopper, he should bid it. Thus 3♣ already suggests towards slam. Thus I take 3♥ simply as a cuebid. Whether it denies one in ♦ depends on agreements and style.

 

We all know responder is interested in slam when he bids 3♣, or wasnt sure where he wants to game. It is not a firm judgement/strategy to think that responder would simply bid 3NT with all hands that has no slam interest and dont even bother to show ♣. Thats how people end up playing no play 3NT contracts when almost slam is available in the agreed minor.

 

You are mistaken perhaps if you think 2 NT promised a full stopper, xx Qx AJxxx AQxx would bid 2 NT and responder has to show his ♣ support if a- has a slam interest b-isnt sure where to play the game. Thus the bids under 3NT are for the right strain.

 

Here is a quote from Kit Woolsey (from bridge winners)

 

My partnership agreements are: Above 3NT, there are no choice of games Q-bids. Any Q-bid is a slam try. Below 3NT there are no slam tries unless a 9-card major-suit fit has been established. Any artificial call is assumed to be looking for the best game until proven otherwise. This doesn't always work perfectly, but it leaves no ambiguity and clears up situations such as .....

[mike777]

 

 

Mike, what do you suggest opener to do with stronger hands if the max for this is 13 count? I guess it's possible to jump to 3NT with 14+ but that seems quite problematic. I'd at least make a split so that 2NT is min or max and 3NT then is 14-15. Without specific agreements about this kind of sequence, I'd just split my range later with NS3NT.

 

 

with this shape(2254) and 14+ I would open a nt type bid very very often.

 

if 1=3=5=4 sure I may have more than 13 here but then I am really thinking about slam after pards 3c bid.

[mike777]

I think we're still discussing strains, so it's concentrated hearts rather than a cue-bid. That will sometimes amount to the same thing, but one difference is that it doesn't deny a diamond cue-bid. I'd bid 3♥ with something like x AKJ Axxxx QJxx, for example.

 

 

that is a huge hand for me across from pards 3c bid, I am looking more for a grand slam now.

[Poky]

1♦:1♠

2♣:2♥

2N:3♣

3♥

 

How do you play this?

Probably ♥Axx, not sure about 3NT.

[JLOGIC]

I think we're still discussing strains, so it's concentrated hearts rather than a cue-bid. That will sometimes amount to the same thing, but one difference is that it doesn't deny a diamond cue-bid. I'd bid 3♥ with something like x AKJ Axxxx QJxx, for example.

 

Amen, you and I would be good as partners, this was exactly my feeling.

[JLOGIC]

OK, so if responder's third bid is 3♦ instead of 3♣, presumably 3♥ would still have the same meaning? It feels much better for it to show a weak heart stop, or perhaps just club strength, on that sequence, but it would require rather sophisticated agreements for the two 3♥ bids to have different meanings.

 

I don't think so. I think it's just bridge logic. Over 3C if you have 1354 with a weak heart stopper, you will very likely have a 3D bid. I guess it's possible you have all the club honors or something, in which case you can still bid 3H with like x Axx xxxxx AKQx I guess, it's not that far off and obv that's a weird hand type. With a doubleton spade you can bid 3S obviously.

 

Over 3D, everything is different. With no 3D bid you have 3H, 3S, and 3N. 3S would be a doubleton spade, so your only other bids are 3H and 3N. To me 3H would just say "I am unsure about 3N and don't want to go past it." This is either a weak heart stopper or an overall slam suitable hand with a stiff spade.

 

Having an extra step in an auction like this obviously changes the whole context of the bidding.

[JLOGIC]

Assuming what I regard as the English style of FSF, where opener would often have bid 2♠ with 2254, the suit where we're most vulnerable is probably spades. I'm making this up as I go along, but I think that in both sequences:

- 3♠ shows 2254 (unless that was excluded by the 2NT bid).

- 3NT is a suggestion to play there, so implies a singleton spade honour, or something like xx AK in the majors.

- Whatever is left has to cover the hands with a small singleton spade.

 

After responder has bid 3♣, we can split the third category into hands with good diamonds and hands with good hearts. After responder has bid 3♦, we can't, so they all get lumped into 3♥.

 

Again I agree with this. FWIW I would sometimes bid 2S with 2254 and sometimes 2N. If I had 2 small spades and a heart stopper, I would almost always bid 2N. Hx of spades and a heart stopper might depend. So if I bid 3S you would know I had a real heart stopper and usually 2 small spades, or possibly Hx of spades and a NTy heart stopper like KJ.

[wank]

but the auction which sparked this question was 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-2NT-3♦ which changes things massively. opener can no longer temporise with 3♦ so 3♥ is not so specific

[JLOGIC]

but the auction which sparked this question was 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-2NT-3♦ which changes things massively. opener can no longer temporise with 3♦ so 3♥ is not so specific

 

fo sho

[wank]

fo sho

 

acronym check? FO i could hazard a guess at

[JLOGIC]

acronym check? FO i could hazard a guess at

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fo%20sho

[blackshoe]

Not an acronym, it's an accented "for sure".

[benlessard]

I think we're still discussing strains, so it's concentrated hearts rather than a cue-bid. That will sometimes amount to the same thing, but one difference is that it doesn't deny a diamond cue-bid. I'd bid 3♥ with something like x AKJ Axxxx QJxx, for example.

I would bid 3Nt directly with those hands. 3Nt rather than 2Nt is a space killer so it must have a precise meaning. The french style is that when you have the choice between 2nt and 3Nt you bid 2NT with the weakest and strongest hands and 3Nt is intermediate. For us 3nt always show 1354/1345 with 15-bad 17 and H stopped twice. With weaker or 17-18 we would bid 2Nt.

 

I think this style is pretty common if im trusting my encounters VS american players.

[mike777]

I would bid 3Nt directly with those hands. 3Nt rather than 2Nt is a space killer so it must have a precise meaning. The french style is that when you have the choice between 2nt and 3Nt you bid 2NT with the weakest and strongest hands and 3Nt is intermediate. For us 3nt always show 1354/1345 with 15-bad 17 and H stopped twice. With weaker or 17-18 we would bid 2Nt.

 

I think this style is pretty common if im trusting my encounters VS american players.

 

 

great thread...many are choosing to play/look for 3nt when I am looking for a grand slam with this examplehand.

[benlessard]

Just to make it clear

 

1D--1S

2C--2H

3Nt = 1354/1345 with 15 to a bad 17 with at least AJ9/KQx/AQx/KJT in H.

 

So with

 

1D--1S

2C--2H

2Nt--3C(GF but could be looking for best game rather than being slammish)

3H = a club oriented hands IMO. something like 1345/1354 with good clubs and prime values.

 

With 2254 I would bid 3S, with 1.5 H stoppers but min/soft values i would bid 3Nt. With some other unclear hands ill bid 3D.