Question about semi-forcing 1NT and weak hand with support

[bluecalm]

So let's say we play semi-forcing 1NT in wide range opening context and our system will be used mainly at matchpoints.

 

Opening is 1S. What do we do with fit hands in 4-9hcp range ?

Let's say limit raise is not a problem because we can put it in one of the 2N/3C/3D/3H bid.

 

I see three solutions:

a)just raise directly to 2S with wide range and hope it confuses opponents more than us (ie. they misjudge more often than we overbid to 3S)

b)bid 1NT with say 4-6 and hope it won't get passed out and if it isn't treat as weak hand with two spades risking vulnerable 1NT on 16-18hcp which might go down heavily even undoubled.

c)just pass with 4-5pc or something and raise to 2S with 6-9.

 

 

I am worried about b) at MP's. I am worried even more about a); c) seems strange at first glance but maybe that's the way to go ?

What do you think is the best solution to the problem ?

[CSGibson]

So let's say we play semi-forcing 1NT in wide range opening context and our system will be used mainly at matchpoints.

 

Opening is 1S. What do we do with fit hands in 4-9hcp range ?

Let's say limit raise is not a problem because we can put it in one of the 2N/3C/3D/3H bid.

 

I see three solutions:

a)just raise directly to 2S with wide range and hope it confuses opponents more than us (ie. they misjudge more often than we overbid to 3S)

b)bid 1NT with say 4-6 and hope it won't get passed out and if it isn't treat as weak hand with two spades risking vulnerable 1NT on 16-18hcp which might go down heavily even undoubled.

c)just pass with 4-5pc or something and raise to 2S with 6-9.

 

 

I am worried about b) at MP's. I am worried even more about a); c) seems strange at first glance but maybe that's the way to go ?

What do you think is the best solution to the problem ?

 

 

My preferred solution to this problem is a mid-chart method in the ACBL.

 

I like to use a bid of 2♣ over 1M to show one of three hands:

 

1) bad 3 card LR (basically a good constructive raise to a quacky 3 card limit raise)

2) game force with clubs or

3) 4-3-3-3 with 13-15 HCP and 3 of opener's M.

 

Follow ups are similar to drury, in that 2M (or 2H if the opening was spades) is a hand not interested in game opposite a bad 3 card LR, and 2D indicates interest. Responder will then bid 2M or 4M with the flawed 3 card LR, 3N with the 13-15, and something else, natural and descriptive, with the game forcing hand with clubs.

 

Using this method, you just raise 1M to 2M with the bad raise, and incorporate a lot of the better raises into 2C. Its important to have good follow-ups, though, for what to do over interference, but you add the preemptive effect of 1M-2M, and it shows a reasonable profit.

[bluecalm]

Yeah, this is nice. I saw something similar in Bocchi-Duboin system and I quite like it.

I am more interested in solution in standard 2/1 context though. I should've mentioned it in OP.

[mike777]

So let's say we play semi-forcing 1NT in wide range opening context and our system will be used mainly at matchpoints.

 

Opening is 1S. What do we do with fit hands in 4-9hcp range ?

Let's say limit raise is not a problem because we can put it in one of the 2N/3C/3D/3H bid.

 

I see three solutions:

a)just raise directly to 2S with wide range and hope it confuses opponents more than us (ie. they misjudge more often than we overbid to 3S)

b)bid 1NT with say 4-6 and hope it won't get passed out and if it isn't treat as weak hand with two spades risking vulnerable 1NT on 16-18hcp which might go down heavily even undoubled.

c)just pass with 4-5pc or something and raise to 2S with 6-9.

 

 

I am worried about b) at MP's. I am worried even more about a); c) seems strange at first glance but maybe that's the way to go ?

What do you think is the best solution to the problem ?

 

 

 

I play Bergen raises so not sure what the problem is here.

 

Pard will only pass 1nt with a dead minimum...say:

 

QJxxx...QJx...Qxx...Kx or so....you play sf nt so you can pass crappy hands such as this. :)

 

so if pard has 3s and say around 4-7 support pts she bids a sf 1nt

[bluecalm]

Pard will only pass 1nt with a dead minimum...say:

 

QJxxx...QJx...Qxx...Kx

 

Interesting. I thought the whole point of playing 1NT semiforcing is to have 2D being natural 4+ cards and 2C either natural or some kind of operational bid (like Gazilli) which contains natural clubs.

That would imply passin with 5-3-3-2's up to 14hcp, isn't that what "semi-forcing" 1NT implies ?

I mean, what do you do with

AKxxx AQx xxx xx ? If that hand bids anything I would call it forcing 1NT :)

[mike777]

Interesting. I thought the whole point of playing 1NT semiforcing is to have 2D being natural 4+ cards and 2C either natural or some kind of operational bid (like Gazilli) which contains natural clubs.

That would imply passin with 5-3-3-2's up to 14hcp, isn't that what "semi-forcing" 1NT implies ?

I mean, what do you do with

AKxxx AQx xxx xx ? If that hand bids anything I would call it forcing 1NT :)

 

 

Easy 2c rebid....then BART if we open 1s

switch the majors I still bid rebid 2c.....

I mean I am accepting any invite pard makes over 2c.

 

I sure aint passin it.

 

I only pass dead minimum hands. semiforcing in other words...95% forcing if you prefer :)

[bluecalm]

Ok, I understand your style.

It seems my question wasn't clear enough because I didn't understand what "semi-forcing" 1NT means to people.

 

I will clarify: what do you do in 2/1 context, where partner passes 12-14's 5-3-3-2's after our 1NT and 2C/2D bids are only made with 4+cards.

[MickyB]

I'd describe the raises as "semi-constructive" and adjust how I bid according to conditions - somewhere between your solutions.

 

• Vul at MPs, I'd probably only respond 1NT with balanced 6-counts and 3(433) 7-counts. Raise with a 4432 7, pass with a balanced 5.
  
• At less scary conditions, I'd respond 1NT on most balanced hands with 4-7 points.
  
• With a singleton outside, I'd pick between pass and 2M.
  

 

BTW, this whole style requires some similar fudging. You can't open 1♠ on both AQxxx Axx Jxx Kx and KQTxx xx x KQxxx as partner has to decide at his first turn whether to play part-score opposite the first hand or game opposite the second, I think you have to upgrade the first hand to 1NT and pass the second hand to keep the range manageable. Playing 1M:1NT as semi-forcing works better with a 14-16 NT.

Edited February 17, 2012 by MickyB

[mike777]

I'd describe the raises as "semi-constructive" and adjust how I bid according to conditions - somewhere between your solutions.

 

• Vul at MPs, I'd probably only respond 1NT with balanced 6-counts and 3(433) 7-counts. Raise with a 4432 7, pass with a balanced 5.
  
• At less scary conditions, I'd respond 1NT on most balanced hands with 4-7 points.
  
• With a singleton outside, I'd pick between pass and 2M.
  

 

BTW, this whole style requires some similar fudging. You can't open 1♠ on both AQxxx Axx Jxx Kx and AQxxx xx x KJxxx as partner has to decide at his first turn whether to play part-score opposite the first hand or game opposite the second, I think you have to upgrade the first hand to 1NT and pass the second hand to keep the range manageable. Playing 1M:1NT as semi-forcing works better with a 14-16 NT.

 

 

agree with 14-16 nt which is how I was taught.

[bluecalm]

You can't open 1♠ on both AQxxx Axx Jxx Kx and KQTxx xx x KQxxx as partner has to decide at his first turn whether to play part-score opposite the first hand or game opposite the second, I think you have to upgrade the first hand to 1NT and pass the second hand to keep the range manageable. Playing 1M:1NT as semi-forcing works better with a 14-16 NT.

 

Exactly 14 opposite exactly 11 is rare and game isn't always good anyway.

This style has many advantages. One is that clubs are not lost, 2nd is that you could play 2C as 2way: either natural 5S-4+C 11-15 or 16+any hand which plugs standard holes of standards (no sensible way to bid strong hands, no way to stop in partscore if responder has 6-7hcp, jumps with 4 cards made on any 18 5-4 even opposite 5hcp, jumpst with 6carder and 15-16hcp opposite what could be 5hcp with singleton, unbiddable 6-(3-3-1) 16+ hands, etc. etc.).

 

I would rather work on solving problems within that framework, which has proven track record in top level bridge, than changing the framework to something which generates tons of other problems.

[MickyB]

I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't play it, just that keeping your openings sound and upgrading marginal 5M332s into 1NT is indicated.

[awm]

With 5-6 total points in support I will normally bid 1NT even in styles where it is not forcing. While in principle it could continue with everyone passing, in practice this tends not to happen all that often. Frequently partner has some shape or opponents bid or something. Even if I play in 1NT, it is not necessarily clear that 1NT is bad on these hands (since either we have two flat hands, or the opponents have a substantial fit somewhere that they missed).

[JLOGIC]

So let's say we play semi-forcing 1NT in wide range opening context and our system will be used mainly at matchpoints.

 

Opening is 1S. What do we do with fit hands in 4-9hcp range ?

Let's say limit raise is not a problem because we can put it in one of the 2N/3C/3D/3H bid.

 

I see three solutions:

a)just raise directly to 2S with wide range and hope it confuses opponents more than us (ie. they misjudge more often than we overbid to 3S)

b)bid 1NT with say 4-6 and hope it won't get passed out and if it isn't treat as weak hand with two spades risking vulnerable 1NT on 16-18hcp which might go down heavily even undoubled.

c)just pass with 4-5pc or something and raise to 2S with 6-9.

 

 

I am worried about b) at MP's. I am worried even more about a); c) seems strange at first glance but maybe that's the way to go ?

What do you think is the best solution to the problem ?

 

Playing strong club when vul I do pass if I'm too scared of 1N being passed out. When I play natural I will pass with 4 and maybe a bad 5 but if I might have game I will respond and hope it doesn't get passed out. After all, we have an 8 card major suit fit and they have a good majority of the points, they're unlikely to let us play it, usually someone will have a bid. I think missing a game with the 5-6 hand type is a more important concern in standard. With 4 points vulnerable you should be passing routinely imo.

 

edit: Now that I read the thread, I guess I just agree with awm lol

[Siegmund]

I've always thought that the whole single-raise-constructive thing was a bit bassackwards.

 

The superweak hands are the ones where 1NT is bad; when you actually have 21 points 1NT is going to make. If you are going to play semiforcing NT, why not do "single raise un-constructive," let the immediate 2S bid be 5-8 or something, and move the best single raises into 1NT?

[MickyB]

I've always thought that the whole single-raise-constructive thing was a bit bassackwards.

 

The superweak hands are the ones where 1NT is bad; when you actually have 21 points 1NT is going to make. If you are going to play semiforcing NT, why not do "single raise un-constructive," let the immediate 2S bid be 5-8 or something, and move the best single raises into 1NT?

 

Because 1S:1N, 2H:2S as "5-9 2♠ or 4-7 3♠" works. 1S:1N, 2H:2S as "5-9 2♠ or 8-10 3♠" would not. You'd have to raise directly on weak hands with a doubleton in partner's suit [at least for 5422 and the like - if you were 4432 or 5332 you could respond 1NT then pass partner's rebid instead if you preferred].

[mike777]

I've always thought that the whole single-raise-constructive thing was a bit bassackwards.

 

The superweak hands are the ones where 1NT is bad; when you actually have 21 points 1NT is going to make. If you are going to play semiforcing NT, why not do "single raise un-constructive," let the immediate 2S bid be 5-8 or something, and move the best single raises into 1NT?

 

 

really splitting hairs but 8 is 1s=2s

 

 

so 1nt is 5-7 support pts....

 

pard will pass 1nt with only crap.....so....

 

this is a tiny window.....

[whereagles]

I would bid 1NT on like 4-6 hcp and a 4333. With a useful doubleton and 4-6 I'd definitely raise.

 

This is from experience. If you hide support you might get into trouble later on.

[kgr]

With 5-6 total points in support I will normally bid 1NT even in styles where it is not forcing. While in principle it could continue with everyone passing, in practice this tends not to happen all that often. Frequently partner has some shape or opponents bid or something. Even if I play in 1NT, it is not necessarily clear that 1NT is bad on these hands (since either we have two flat hands, or the opponents have a substantial fit somewhere that they missed).

That is what I play with non-forcing 1NT & happy with it. (1NT can contain 3c support and 4-7 pts).

[fromageGB]

pard will pass 1nt with only crap.....so....

 

this is a tiny window.....

Can't say I agree with this. Partner is going to pass with any balanced or semi-balanced 12 or 13 HCP, and this is by no means crap. And when he does, playing 1NT on a combined 16 count is nowhere near as good as playing 2♠ in a 5-3 fit, or 1♠ of course.

 

I sympathise with bluecalm.

 

For myself I play 1NT forcing, and also put the 11/12 3 card support into the 1NT. Tricky.

 

Playing 1NT not forcing I would prefer to alter the support ranges and bid 2M with the weaker support hands. This probably means altering your 2♣ reply to force a 2♦, to be followed by clarification that includes 2M to play. So with 3 card support

1M 2M = 3/4-6 HCP

1M 2C then 2M = 7-10

1M 2C then 3M = 11/12

This of course in turn means that with a normal 2 over 1 club hand with 3 card support you cannot just rebid 2M, and would probably need to put another puppet in there, such as OtherMajor over the 2♦.

 

If this has no unmanageable impact on your 2♣ sequences, then that would be my choice. Second choice is not bidding at all on 4-6 HCP 3 card support, and hope if it gets to you again you can then bid 2M.

[nigel_k]

It's good to be able to include 10 HCP hands in the single raise, because most people like to open light with a five card major and at matchpoints especially they might balance. But 5-10 (or even 5-9) is really too wide so you need to split them and it works better to raise immediately with hands in the upper part of the range.

 

There is a risk of playing 1NT with (4)5-6 opposite 12 and an eight card fit but quite often opponents will bid and non-vulnerable even -2 is probably ok.

 

Also, my understanding of a semi-forcing NT is that opener only passes on hands that would refuse an invite. With 14 and some 13s I would make my normal rebid, in a 3 card suit if necessary.

[bluecalm]

Also, my understanding of a semi-forcing NT is that opener only passes on hands that would refuse an invite. With 14 and some 13s I would make my normal rebid, in a 3 card suit if necessary.

 

I stand corrected on terminology.

What I really meant is non-forcing 1NT.

Where I live bidding on 3card suit is not only not normal but would be considered a psyche.

People either play non-forcing or forcing and then 2♣ contain all 5-3-3-2's. Nobody ever rebids 2D with 5-3-3-2, nobody ever rebids 2C on 5-3-2-3 unless it's conventional and it's always alerted.

The only exception to this rule is 1H - 1N - 2D on 4-5-3-1 which is kinda standard but even then many people alert.

 

This is 1NT top Polish and Italian pairs play and this is what I meant. I believe native English speakers/players here on bbo forum and I will call in "non-forcing" 1NT.

[MickyB]

The term "semi-forcing" is used regardless of whether maximum weak NTs pass or bid, in my experience. Don't ask me why. I prefer "wide-ranging non-forcing" and alert as "5-11 NF" if all weak NTs are to pass.

[gnasher]

The term "semi-forcing" is used regardless of whether maximum weak NTs pass or bid, in my experience.

If so, I think that's a misuse. We already have a term to descibe a 1NT response opposite which opener is supposed to bid with an unbalanced hand or a balanced 18-count, and pass with 11-14 balanced: "non-forcing". If the term "semi-forcing" is to have any value, it should mean something different.

 

I prefer "wide-ranging non-forcing" and alert as "5-11 NF" if all weak NTs are to pass.

But now you have moved from describing what opener is expect to do to describing what responder is expected to hold. That may meet the demands of disclosure at the table, but it's less useful in a discussion of methods.

[ArtK78]

I have mentioned before that I play semi-forcing 1NT responses to one of a major in the context of light (10+) opening bids. Opener is expected to take a second call on any "full" opener or any unbalanced hand. If opener takes a second call, opener treats the 1NT response as a forcing 1NT.

 

Therefore, the only time we pass the semi-forcing 1NT response is on an opening hand which is a balanced (5332) 10 or 11 count.

[fromageGB]

It's good to be able to include 10 HCP hands in the single raise, because most people like to open light with a five card major and at matchpoints especially they might balance. But 5-10 (or even 5-9) is really too wide so you need to split them and it works better to raise immediately with hands in the upper part of the range.

I agree that 5-10 is too big a range, but when you split the range it is arguable that the weaker immediate raise is best, as it is more preemptive. But you can do it either way.

 

There is a risk of playing 1NT with (4)5-6 opposite 12 and an eight card fit but quite often opponents will bid and non-vulnerable even -2 is probably ok.

Yes -100 may not be too bad, but vulnerable, I don't like it. Play a different system when vulnerable? Don't forget, if your side has a 17 count 8 card fit playing in NT, the other side has 23 and an 8 card fit and they are on lead. Prospects are more like 3 off than 2 off. Better in my view to pass the 4/5 HCP hands, and play in 1M

 

Also, my understanding of a semi-forcing NT is that opener only passes on hands that would refuse an invite. With 14 and some 13s I would make my normal rebid, in a 3 card suit if necessary.

If your style is to open 1NT on 15 and 1M on 11/12-14, you will be passing 1M 1NT as often as you bid on. That is why it is dangerous to include low HCP hands in the 1NT reply.