billw55 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 ops quiet, first seat opening: 1♣ - 1♦1♥ - 1♠1NT - 3♦ <--- F or NF? Now maybe everyone says "depends on agreements" .. in that case, what would you consider north american standard? European? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi, NF, inv. values, 6-4. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 ops quiet, first seat opening: 1♣ - 1♦1♥ - 1♠1NT - 3♦ <--- F or NF? Now maybe everyone says "depends on agreements" .. in that case, what would you consider north american standard? European? a bit tricky but I would never pass it. I would think 1s sets up a gf without any discussion. Good hand to discuss later if pard meant 3d was not forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 This is forcing. 1♠ sets up a force, even if it was only one round then I have to think that 2♦ would cover the invitational hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 It really depends on 1 ♠. If this was simple up the line bidding, I can see no reason why 2 ♦ should not be weak and to play and 3 ♦ invitational. Of course, you may develop better bidding system where you do not need a 2 ♦ sign off, but obviously you haven't yet. If 1 ♠ is 4 suit forcing, 3 Diamond is forcing. Opposite an unknown partner, I would aussume 4sf, so 3 ♦ is forcing too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Interesting. If 1♠ is GF, then what does 3♦ show as opposed to 2♦? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Interesting. If 1♠ is GF, then what does 3♦ show as opposed to 2♦? I'd say in the context of 1♠ establishing a game force, it shows a good 6+ card diamond suit, slam interest. I don't think 1♠ has to be game forcing without agreement, but I do think it should be at least invitational values, since you didn't bypass diamonds to begin with. In that context, 2♦ would show the invitational hand, and 3♦ the forcing hand. But either way, 3♦ is definitely forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would take 3d as a slam try and setting trumps, pard pls cuebid now. 1s for me would be natural and gf with longer diamonds. With less than gf or equal d and s, I would start with 1s 2d would be natural and gf but a bit less than 3d--- sidenote XYZ which is discussed often here in the forums can help a bit with hands less than gf with longer d and 4spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'd say in the context of 1♠ establishing a game force, it shows a good 6+ card diamond suit, slam interest. I don't think 1♠ has to be game forcing without agreement, but I do think it should be at least invitational values, since you didn't bypass diamonds to begin with. In that context, 2♦ would show the invitational hand, and 3♦ the forcing hand. But either way, 3♦ is definitely forcing.May depend if 1♣-2♦ is weak or strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 OK next question. What should 2♠ by responder (over 1♥) show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 OK next question. What should 2♠ by responder (over 1♥) show? To be discussed. You may choose 1 ♠ as a natural bid and 2 ♠ as artifical gf without 4 spades. If you play that 1 ♠ is either spades or artifical gf, 2 ♠ can be used as a 5+5 hand, similar to other auctions where the jump in the 4. suit shows a twosuiter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu D Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I thought most people didn't play 1C-1D-1H-1S as fourth suit forcing? So with that said 3D invitational values, 6 diamonds (he's probably got a 4=2=6=1 hand) ACBL website suggests they don't, for whatever that's worth: http://web2.acbl.org/documentLibrary/play/Commonly_Used_Conventions/4thsuitforcing.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Around here, most play 1♠ as 4SF. I don't. I play Walsh, so 1♠ shows 4+ spades and invitational values (and 1♦ shows 4+ diamonds). When I later bid 3♦ over 1NT, since I play Two Way Checkback so could have bid either 2♣ (inv) or 2♦ (GF), I'm showing 4 spades and 6 diamonds and invitational values (with a GF, I'd start with 2♦). BTW, the auction 1♣-1♠-1NT-3♦ would show a weak hand with 4 spades and 6 diamonds. tl;dr: I agree with Marlowe. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siegmund Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I thought most people didn't play 1C-1D-1H-1S as fourth suit forcing? The writers of the yellow card pamphlet, and about three other people in the world, use 2S over 1C-1D-1H as FSF. I've yet to meet any of them at the table.It is true that 1S is more likely to include a spade suit than most other FSF bids. Opener will be correspondingly more willing to bid 2S rather than notrump with 4-4-1-4 hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 The writers of the yellow card pamphlet, and about three other people in the world, use 2S over 1C-1D-1H as FSF. I've yet to meet any of them at the table.It is true that 1S is more likely to include a spade suit than most other FSF bids. Opener will be correspondingly more willing to bid 2S rather than notrump with 4-4-1-4 hands. I and my regular partner are two of the three. I wonder who the third is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I and my regular partner are two of the three. I wonder who the third is? Elianna and me.... oops, that's four. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 And my partner- I do not count, he forced me to use it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 +1 to the "1♠ is a natural, 4+, one round force, 2♠ is GF" camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I play Walsh, so 1♠ shows 4+ spades and invitational values. You certainly might play it that way, but I wouldn't call it Walsh. Walsh responds 1S with 4 spades, a longer diamond suit, and less than G.F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Forcing for me as 1S is 4th suit forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 OK next question. What should 2♠ by responder (over 1♥) show? Mini splinter for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I and my regular partner are two of the three. I wonder who the third is? Elianna and me.... oops, that's four. :P And me. And George Rosenkranz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 You certainly might play it that way, but I wouldn't call it Walsh. Walsh responds 1S with 4 spades, a longer diamond suit, and less than G.F. Same principle. The strength is just a nit. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 The writers of the yellow card pamphlet, and about three other people in the world, use 2S over 1C-1D-1H as FSF. I've yet to meet any of them at the table.It is true that 1S is more likely to include a spade suit than most other FSF bids. Opener will be correspondingly more willing to bid 2S rather than notrump with 4-4-1-4 hands.This is part of Forum D+, the official German Standard System, and most likely part of the French System as well, Forum D+ is basically a copy of the French Standard System.In a 5 card major system, when a 1C opening could be based on only 2 cards, itmakes sense to play 1S as natural, but FSF is still needed. Playing Acol, 1S was FSF. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 The writers of the yellow card pamphlet, and about three other people in the world, use 2S over 1C-1D-1H as FSF. I've yet to meet any of them at the table. Plus the vast majority of B/Is in England. To quote from the official EBU Acol System File... 2.6.1 Bidding the fourth suit When the partnership has bid three suits a bid of the fourth suit is forcing andartificial, asking partner for more information. The only exception is the auction1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 1♠ which shows four spades (still forcing). In this instance 2♠would be the artificial ‘fourth suit forcing’ (FSF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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