would your auction be the same as ours?

[jillybean]

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[han]

No, north would open 1H and south would like his hand.

[Zelandakh]

1NT - 2♣

2♥ showing 5 seems like a good start to me, after which everything is extremely easy. But I guess you would not be playing this! How about if North opens 1♥? Then South is again good enough to look for slam so no problems. In either case it should be trivial to reach 7NT.

 

Once North passes then things get more difficult. South has a strong 2 so anyone playing these or Benji/SEF 2 bids is laughing. Having these bids included in a Multi does not work so well when North bounces though.

 

If we are stuck with weak 2s then the next chance is South's rebid after 1♦ - 1♥. South has a strong 2 bid! Why would you want to stop below game here? Some play a 3NT rebid here as showing this hand, essentially a strong 2 1-suiter in diamonds. That should get you to a diamond slam of some type. Others play some kind of gadget with game forcing hands, for example a 2♠ rebid might be any GF hand and not necessarily with spades. That sort of method would give you a more controlled auction and then you probably reach 7♥ or 7NT.

 

Perhaps this post is not necessarily right for B/I and I should just say "either North should open or South should rebid more strongly" (Edit: or just han's one-liner) but this is an area where everyone knows that traditional methods are not great and that is why so many alternatives have been created. Better methods can help alot and this is particularly true for intermediate players who usually do not have expert level judgement and understanding to escape from the traps of poor system design (but will often have the ability to learn a simple gadget that means less judgement is required).

[han]

For what it is worth, I don't open all 5332's with 11 points but I like this heart suit very much.

[Flameous]

Assuming south hand was first in turn, pretty much the same playing standard. This is a situation you can't really handle without some gadgets. Point is that S is GF after 1♥ whenever N holds 5 hearts but there's no way to show that type of hand. Possible solutions are 2♠ jumpshift and 1♠ rebid if played forcing.

It's also possible to fit that hand type in 2NT but you are losing accuracy in NT sequences then.

[Codo]

No,

 

1. Even playing 2/1 I would open 1 ♥ and take it from there.

 

2. If I had passed, the south hand is close to the Bridge wolrd death hand. These hands (strong 6 card minor, 3 card support for partners major) do happen and it is nice to have a solution for them. Of course you can live without them. :)

 

3. After pass 1 ♦ 1 ♥ 3 ♦ 3 Nt is lazy. Partner announced extras and north bids as if he has 7- 8 points, no fit. So I have understanding if the setting is MPS but at imps, I would make a slam try with 4 ♦- if this is no slam try for you, (I have no idea what is standard here, maybe just invitational is the most common treatment), force with 4 ♣.

[paulg]

If you read The Bridge World then it seems that these hands appear almost every month. There is a reason for this, namely that there is no expert-standard solution.

 

Some gadgets might help, but in real life these hands do not seem to come up with the frequency implied by the number of appearances in BW and there are many other more useful gadgets to concentrate on. Of course when it does come up you are guessing, but I suggest not worrying too much about these hands.

 

paul

A pragmatist today

[ahydra]

Playing weak NT 4cM I'd open the North hand 1H or 1NT according to style. Say 1H...

 

1H-2D

2H-4C (splinter)

 

North now has an interesting decision. He loves his trumps and Ax clubs but his point count and shape is crap. Ah well, he can't cue 4D anyway so 4H it is.

 

4H-4S

4NT (RKC hearts)-5C (0 or 3)

5NT (ask kings)-6D (SK and CK or the DK)

 

Can north count 13 tricks? It's all on the DQ, which unfortunately there's no room to ask for. So 6H it is. Perhaps North can "guess" that South has the DK and bid 6D over 5C?

 

I guess this is where experience comes in - seeing the epic diamond suit, South must realise he needs to take control and do the ace-asking. He can then count 5 or 6D, 5H, a club ruff, SA and CA - so bids the grand.

 

ahydra

[Cthulhu D]

I'd open 1H with the north hand and it's pretty easy from there, we miss the splinter because we'll rebid 2NT with this hand, so we'll stop in the small slam I suspect.

[mich-b]

Playing weak NT 4cM I'd open the North hand 1H or 1NT according to style. Say 1H...

 

1H-2D

2H-4C (splinter)

 

North now has an interesting decision. He loves his trumps and Ax clubs but his point count and shape is crap. Ah well, he can't cue 4D anyway so 4H it is.

 

4H-4S

4NT (RKC hearts)-5C (0 or 3)

5NT (ask kings)-6D (SK and CK or the DK)

 

Can north count 13 tricks? It's all on the DQ, which unfortunately there's no room to ask for. So 6H it is. Perhaps North can "guess" that South has the DK and bid 6D over 5C?

 

I guess this is where experience comes in - seeing the epic diamond suit, South must realise he needs to take control and do the ace-asking. He can then count 5 or 6D, 5H, a club ruff, SA and CA - so bids the grand.

 

ahydra

 

(While I don't necessarily agree with the bidding up to that point)

When North bids 5NT asking for Kings , South should bid 7 , since he has a source of tricks , that will provide as many as needed.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

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Aside from the fact that North has a 1♥ opener, now is the time for GGG by Opener to show BOTH 5+ cards ♦ and 3 cards ♥over a 1H Response.

 

p - 1D

1H - 2S! ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget; Sp may be artificial ) Gnasher disavows any originality for the GGG .

2NT!(asks) -

.. 3D! = long Diam; Sp was artificial

.. 3C! = ( other minor ) 4 cards Sp

.. 3H! = 3 cards

♥

, 5+

♦

, Sp was artificial

After .... - 3H!

4C ( advance cue ) - 4S! ( kickback-RKC for ♥ )

5H ( 2 + ♥Q ) - 6H

[Zelandakh]

Others play some kind of gadget with game forcing hands, for example a 2♠ rebid might be any GF hand and not necessarily with spades. That sort of method would give you a more controlled auction and then you probably reach 7♥ or 7NT.

 

 

Aside from the fact that North has a 1♥ opener, now is the time for GGG by Opener to show BOTH 5+ cards ♦ and 3 cards ♥.

<snip>

- 6H

 

Bah, you let me down Don. How many hands can you construct for North which do not give a play for 7♥ here?

[mike777]

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1h=2d

2nt=3h

4c=4s(rkc in h)

5h=then 7h or 7nt.

 

Pretty easy if north is first to bid,much tougher if south is first to bid.

 

---

 

 

sidenote I think the hand with a source of tricks, south, rather than the hand with just controls, north, should strain to bid rkc first if possible.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Bah, you let me down Don. How many hands can you construct for North which do not give a play for 7♥ here?

Ooops ... I was so enthusiastic about the GGG, I overlooked that Opener had a 6 card ♦ suit instead of 5 and, so, I only counted 12 tricks .

However, even if the Diam didn't run, there still is the Club-ruff in the short hand for the 13th trick... duhhh.

[quiddity]

I think whether North opens or not is almost completely beside the point. Replace the ♠Q with a small spade if it makes you feel better. Balanced 11-counts tend to be pretty borderline even with a good suit.

 

The main problem is that 3♦ was an underbid. With 8 tricks for notrump and Axx in partner's suit and a stiff South needs to make a forcing bid.

[jillybean]

The main problem is that 3♦ was an underbid. With 8 tricks for notrump and Axx in partner's suit and a stiff South needs to make a forcing bid.

2♠, with no GGG agreement ?

[CSGibson]

2♠ ?

 

No, never 2♠. It doesn't work well when partner has 4 spades, because he can always correct diamonds to spades at every level.

 

I had a similar hand in a national where I jump shifted to 3♣. as you can expect, the auction quickly disintegrated, as partner raised to 5♣, and raised my 5♦ call to 6♣, which I pulled to 6N. Luckily the opponents weren't in on the joke either, and did not cash their AK of clubs, so we scored it up, but...it wasn't a smooth auction.

 

I think the closest lie is a 4♦ call instead of 3♦ playing standard.

[jillybean]

I'm sure you are right however I always balk at passing the 3NT trap.

After 4♦ can partner still try for a ♥ fit as long as he has diamond tolerance or would a new suit be a cue? (I haven't ignored your advice Paul, but this is interesting :) )

[kuhchung]

1) I understand passing with the N hand. I think it's borderline. It's not ridiculous.

 

2) After 1D 1H, I would jump shift into 2S. If partner doesn't understand that sometimes we must fake a jump shift, I guess I am stuck bidding 3D. (I am not willing to jump shift into 3C)

 

3) After 3D, I think N should bid 3H, forcing. (For me, 3H is forcing and searching for the best game. A bad hand just passes 3D. Sometimes you are stuck with a bunch of bad hearts and a diamond void. Can't do everything.) Now south can show a big heart raise by bidding 4C and you will get there.

 

Edit: Another option by N would be 4D... not sure what I would do, to be honest. Probably 3H though.

[Cyberyeti]

While we don't use GGG, we use a 2N rebid in similar fashion, so assuming we were facing the same hand with worse ♠ so we didn't open it, we'd bid:

 

1♦-1♥

2N(GF unbal)-3♣(semi forced unless a lot of shape)

3♦(6+ good ♦, one suited not denying 3♥)-3♥(I have 5 decent or any 6+)

4♠(kickback)- 5♥(2 with)

7♥ or 7N

[CSGibson]

I'm sure you are right however I always balk at passing the 3NT trap.

After 4♦ can partner still try for a ♥ fit as long as he has diamond tolerance or would a new suit be a cue? (I haven't ignored your advice Paul, but this is interesting :) )

 

Traditionally 4D shows 4 hearts, 6 diamonds, & concentrated values in the two suits with enough playing strength to force to game - its a specialized heart raise. It could work out very badly on this auction, but so could everything else.

[the hog]

No, 3D with 3 card H support is not optimal. We would bid 2NT forcing to show vaious hand types, which responder could check back with 3C.

[jillybean]

Traditionally 4D shows 4 hearts, 6 diamonds, & concentrated values in the two suits with enough playing strength to force to game - its a specialized heart raise. It could work out very badly on this auction, but so could everything else.

Ah yes, I remember this now. Thanks.

[Fluffy]

south´s 3♦ is wrong, he can bid 2NT or 3NT, with heart potential I think 2NT is better

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♣

3♥

 

I don´t think I´d find slam anyway, can´t evaluate the club shortness once it has been denied :(

[billw55]

Interesting, everybody wants to be in grand here. But that depends on both red suits breaking, perhaps a 65% chance or so? OK that is above the theoretical breakeven points at IMPs. But people are always saying you should be more conservative than that, because from time to time the other table will only be in game (such as 3NT ;)).

 

I would probably bid the grand myself, I am that way, but I have sometimes been chastised for it.