Advices on Precision 1C:2NT sequences

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

I'd like some advice on the following sequence, in a version of Precision.

 

The following assumes that over a 1C opener, responder bids :

- naturally the 5+ card longer suit (except 1D) holding 8+ hcp

- 1NT with a balanced 8-13

- 2NT with balanced 14+

- other bids with a 3-suiter

 

I am aware there are better schemes (e.g. different ranges for balanced hands, transfer responses, semipositive responses, etc etc), but, PLEASE, I'd like to keep the discussion on the validity of such scheme maybe in another thread.

 

In this thread, let's just live with the fact that 1C:2NT shows a 14+ balanced hand, and not discuss the alternatives.

 

We decided to use this basing it on the scheme given in the Berkowicz book "Precision today".

 

After

1C:2NT

He suggests that the bidding should be forcing to at least 4NT (natural) or 5 of a suit, (otherwise too little space left)

 

Furthermore, he suggests that opener bids now would be:

 

3C = Baron

3X = Support Asking Bids

 

However he does not deal in much detail with this sequence.

 

So, after reading books by Jannersten, Wei, Garozzo-Belladonna, and more, I thought a decent scheme would be:

 

Question 1, 1C:2NT:3C =

option a

Baron. However, I am not very comfortable with Baron, in the sequences where I'd like to agree a suit and later use RKCB.

E.g.

1C:2NT

3C:3H

Now how do I discriminate: 1) RKCB with trump agreed; 2) Nirmal Ace ask; 3) trump agreement asking for a cue ?

 

You see, the point is to have a bid for "implicit agreement", keeping in mind I do not want to start cuebidding at the 5 level.

 

option b

Transfer responses to 1C:2NT:3C.

E.g.

3D = 4 hearts (may have 4 spades); if transfer is accepted, fit is assumed

3H = 4 spades, no 4 hearts

3S = 44 minor

3NT = 4333 with a minor

 

(Just an idea, suggestions for a smarter scheme welcome ! :D )

 

Not all the problems are solved, though

 

1C:2NT

3C:3D

3S*: ? * transfer not accepted., no 4 cd in Hearts, but 4 spades

 

Now which is the implicit agreements below 4 spades ?

 

 

Question 2, 1C:2NT:3X = Support asking bid

 

I like the scheme described by Jannersten in similar situations (not quite the same), where

 

1C:2NT:3X asks for support in the suit and controls

 

step 1 = no support, min range of controls

step 2= no support, max range of controls

step 3 = at least Hxx/xxxx, min range of controls

step 4 = at least Hxx/xxxx, max range of controls

 

If responder shows no support, then a new suit is another support asking bid in the second suit (useful when opener has a 2-suiter).

 

If responder shows support:

a ) new suit should be a control asking bid.

I have tried using this but sometimes it is very space consuming. Especially the fact that 2st step is 3rd round control, forces the biding to high level very quickly.

Do you suggest giving up the step showing 3rd round control, when the bidding is too high (and how high) ?

 

b ) after having shown support, repeating the trump suit should be "trump asking bid" (TAB), asking to clarify the holding in trumps.

 

However, I still feel more comfortable with RKCB sequences for checking trump quality (although I cannot check for Jacks).

Neither I nor pard can remember the TAB responses if we use a detailed scheme, and if we use a simplified scheme, we reach a level of description accuracy not better than RKCB.

 

Comments ?

 

( fobidden responses:

1) using a relay system is much better :P

2) if you had used another scheme of NT ranges you would not have this problem

3) try playing golf :D )

[whereagles]

1. Transfer responses should be better. After the reply you can play:

- Accepting the transfer asks in trumps (steps 011223 - 0, 1, 1+jack, 2, 2+jack, 3).

- New suit 5 card and asks for support in that suit (steps nnyy - no, no+4 controls, yes, yes+4 controls). If no support, opener bids 4/5NT = misfit min/extras.

- 3NT asks for another 4-card suit. Responder bids naturally with 4/5NT = no other suit, min/extras. After this opener bids next step RKCB for responder's 2nd suit, OR 4/5NT = misfit min/extras.

 

2. Leave the step for 3rd round control. That's a grand slam bid, so you enough have space for it. As for TAB or RKCB after a fit is found, I think RKCB is probably better because when there's 16+14 hcp plus a fit, there normally is a slam, except if there are two keys out.

 

In any case I wouldn't worry too much about these sequences. They will only come up once every 2000 hands or so, and even then you'd probably be ok with a simple 1C-2NT-5NT (quantitative) :D

[Chamaco]

2. Leave the step for 3rd round control.

Sorry I did not understand the sentence well :D

 

"Leave the 3round contol step" = what does it mean?

 

1) Give up the 3rd round step responde to the CAB ?

OR

2) Keep the 3rd round control step it into the structure even if it is space consuming ?

[whereagles]

Keep it. It's space-consuming but usually you will end up in a slam anyway, so might as well keep it, just in case the queen/doubleton is the key. Example:

 

Ax..........Kxxx

AKxx......Qxxx

AKxxx....Qxx

xx..........AK

 

1C 2NT

3C 3D

3H 3NT

4D 4S

4NT 5D

6D 6S

7H

 

3C = better look for 44 fit before trying out a diamond fit

3NT= top heart, no heart jack

4S = 3rd round control, queen or doubleton

6D = asks type of control

6S = Qxx (6H would be doubleton, and opener would pass. 6NT would be Qxxx)

[Chamaco]

Keep it. It's space-consuming but usually you will end up in a slam anyway, so might as well keep it, just in case the queen/doubleton is the key. Example:

 

..........................................................

Ty whereagles ! :D

 

Now another question.

 

CASE 1

 

AQxxx.... Kxxx

AKxx......Qxxx

Ax..........Qxx

xx..........AK

 

 

After

1C 2NT

 

What is the plan ?

 

1) Looking for spades by bidding 3S = SAB ?

If no spade support, how do we find hearts then ?

 

OR

 

2) Bidding transfer stayman 3C ?

If responder bids 3S showing 4-4 minor, do we look for a 5-3 spade fit by bidding 4S ?

 

CASE 2

 

AQxx..... Kxxx

AKx.... Qxxx

Axxx......Qxx

xx..........AK

 

 

After

1C 2NT

3C 3D (= 4 hearts)

 

Do you suggest looking for the eventual spade fit by bidding 3NT asking for second suit ? Should second suit be bid in transfer too ?

If the above is true, does it mean that 3S would be a support asking bid (since if spades was only a 4 card suit I'd bid 3NT looking for 44 fit) ?

[whereagles]

Hum.. Both players have the spade king, and I can't figure out what you intended to ask. Pls fix :D

[Chamaco]

Hum.. Both players have the spade king, and I can't figure out what you intended to ask. Pls fix :D

Sorry I forgot my extra deck in my sleeve :D

 

Hands fixed now :P

 

For CASE 1 maybe a better example is

 

CASE 1

 

AQxxx.... Kxx

AKxx......Qx

Ax..........Qxxx

xx..........AKxx

 

 

Here no alternative 4-4 fit is available, so, if using xfer stayman, bidding would go:

 

1C:2NT

3C:3S (44 minor)

Then , here, would 4S be Support asking bid in spades ?

[whereagles]

CASE 1:

 

AQxxx.... Kxxx

AKxx......Qxxx

Ax..........Qxx

xx..........AK

 

After

1C 2NT

What is the plan ?

 

1) Looking for spades by bidding 3S = SAB ?

If no spade support, how do we find hearts then ?

 

OR

 

2) Bidding transfer stayman 3C ?

If responder bids 3S showing 4-4 minor, do we look for a 5-3 spade fit by bidding 4S ?

 

CASE 2:

 

AQxx..... Kxxx

AKx.... Qxxx

Axxx......Qxx

xx..........AK

 

After

1C 2NT

3C 3D (= 4 hearts)

 

Do you suggest looking for the eventual spade fit by bidding 3NT asking for second suit ? Should second suit be bid in transfer too ?

If the above is true, does it mean that 3S would be a support asking bid (since if spades was only a 4 card suit I'd bid 3NT looking for 44 fit) ?

CASE 1:

 

Again I would look for the 44 heart fit before trying spades. If responder bids 3D or 3H, we're ok. If he bids 3S to show a 44 minor, there is a case to ask in spades (bid 4S) because responder could have 3244 shape, in which case heart ruffs would be worth 1-2 extra tricks. Note that if it goes

 

1C 2NT

3C 3S

4S 5C

5NT = misfit! TO PLAY unless responder has 17+

 

Note also:

 

1C 2NT

3C 3S

4S 4NT

5NT = quantitative

 

1C 2NT

3C 3S

4S 5D

5H = probably better used as control ask rather than heart ask. Responder bids 5S with 2 controls and goes on with 3. I know this is not mnemonic, but is probably necessary to make sure you don't bid a slam off two keys.

 

Looking for spades first might work, but you could miss a 4-4 heart fit when you ALSO have a spade fit. This might lead to the usual problem of bidding an unmakable 7S on the 5-3 fit when 7H on the 4-4 is a laydown.

 

Also, if you want to be able to bid 5-5s, you can't ask for spades first and then look for hearts:

 

1C 2NT

3S 4C

4H...

 

4H would be a 5-5, not a 5-4. Thus you are kind of "endplayed" into bidding the 5-4 via 3C. Note also that opposite a 5-5 the heart fit is CERTAIN, so responses to this 4H bid should skip the no-fit steps :D

 

 

CASE 2:

 

I think that 3S should be a support asking bid with 5 cards. With 4 spades only you bid 3NT, after which it seems indeed better that responder bids side suits in transfer:

 

1C 2NT

3C 3D

3NT 4C/D/H/S/NT = diams/SPADES/clubs/3433 min/3433 extras

 

Opener can take the transfer (trump ask - 011223) after which follows RKCB in next step, or bid 1 step above the transfer as straight RKCB. The example hand would be bid

 

AQxx..... Kxxx

AKx........Qxxx

Axxx......Qxx

xx..........AK

 

1C 2NT

3C 3D

3NT 4D

4H 4NT

5C 5S

5NT 6C

6S

 

3NT = another suit?

4D = yes, spades

4H = spade ask

4NT = 1 top, no jack

5C = RKCB

5S = two keys, no queen

5NT= any extras? (could be king ask if you prefer)

6C = not really...

 

There's just one thing that bugs me: there is some overlap of trump asking bids with RKCB. Better perhaps to play that after a trump ask, an "RKCB" bid asks for the precise nr. of controls. If there's no trump ask, RKCB is as normal. This you should think a bit about.

[whereagles]

As for the second case 1:

 

AQxxx.... Kxx

AKxx......Qx

Ax..........Qxxx

xx..........AKxx

 

1C 2NT

3C 3S

4S 5H

5NT 6C

6S

 

5H = fit and 4+ controls

5NT= any extras?

6C = no

[Chamaco]

Whereagles, thank you very much, the suggestions you just gave are the best I could hope at this stage.

 

I'll try some simulations on 1C:2Nt sequences, and maybe come back with other questions, but so far your contribution was really helpful ! :)

[whereagles]

Glad to help. I think the key points are:

 

1. There must be some careful planning before you select a support asking bid or transfer Stayman as the first move.

 

2. After a trump ask, arrange with pard if there's still RKCB or if that bid becomes a control ask.

 

3. You'll have a 1C-2NT sequence like 3 times in your life :)

[Chamaco]

3. You'll have a 1C-2NT sequence like 3 times in your life :)

 

We had auctions like this in th last 5 months :-)

Yes it's rare, but that's exactly the main problem.

 

Other auctions, even more comlicated sometimes, are easier to remmber as they occur more often.

 

Here, since the auction is rare, and it has peculiar problems (very high level, fear to miss gnad slam etc), everytime it happened we never did it right (we started "trying" precision about 5 months ago), and even at the end of the biding, neither me nor pard had a clear idea of which would have been a precise bidding plan to avoid the trouble.

 

So, even if the auction is rare, we are trying to put down a clear logic pathway to slam bidding for all sort of hands, basically:

a ) 2 suiters and one suiters, using SAB, and

b ) balanced/semibalanced, using xfer stayman;

 

differentiating followups for fit and nofit auctions.

 

Of course I am well awar that rare auctions should be practiced with simulated deals, and we already tried some and we'll do some more, but still we needed to fix the logic of the auction.

 

Thanks a lot