Downgrade and pesky opps

[paulg]

A couple of hands debated after our match yesterday.

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sq85hkq6daj2caq83]199|150[/hv]

 

IMPs. You are first in hand at game all playing 2/1 and 15-17 1NT. Is this a hand that you would downgrade to a 1NT opener?

 

[hv=pc=n&n=shaq86da8543cakq8&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=ppp1d1s1n3s]199|300[/hv]

 

Unfavourable vulnerability. Your call?

[rogerclee]

1) No, I understand opening 1N with some 4333 18's but our honor structure here is okay, no reason to downgrade.

 

2) I make a takeout double.

[han]

This will be unanimous.

[paulg]

This will be unanimous.

I must admit that I thought the first hand was clearly not a downgrade and would be surprised if anyone did, but a junior(!) opened it 1NT. I think it is wrong if you ever upgrade fourteen counts but then I put the hand through K&R and it only scored 16.5.

 

The second hand was really an assign the blame. Partner holds ♠A10x ♥xxx ♦KQx ♣J10xx and the +300 from passing the double was poor compensation against game or (a tricky) six diamonds or (trivial) seven clubs that were available.

[whereagles]

1. The only reason to downgrade is that it increases the chance of me ending up declaring the hand :)

 

2. Going with 4♣ here. Also comes to mind 4♠, but a slam is probably too much here.

[rogerclee]

 

The second hand was really an assign the blame. Partner holds ♠A10x ♥xxx ♦KQx ♣J10xx and the +300 from passing the double was poor compensation against game or (a tricky) six diamonds or (trivial) seven clubs that were available.

I would blame the person who passed a takeout double with basically the most offensively oriented hand possible (for the auction).

[Fluffy]

I have no trouble downgrading the first hand, specially if I don't play transfers over 1♣

[Hanoi5]

1♣ and 4♣.

[Codo]

1. 1 ♣

2. I would not like to give my partner the opportunity to pass my take out double. I would bid 4 ♣ and take it from there. He may hold KJxx, Kx,Kxx,xxxx and everybody would call his pass obvious.

[Zelandakh]

I think I would bid 1♣ and 4♠ although han's answer to clee suggests the latter is misguided.

[phil_20686]

This will be unanimous.

 

I find this unlikely.

[cherdano]

2. I would not like to give my partner the opportunity to pass my take out double. I would bid 4 ♣ and take it from there. He may hold KJxx, Kx,Kxx,xxxx and everybody would call his pass obvious.

What's wrong with playing 3♠X opposite this hand?

[han]

It's all very well to call a double takeout, but if partner is always going to pass the double, then that's not a takeout double, it is a penalty double. If double is really takeout, then partner should not pass when he holds the most offensive hand possible.

 

To those bidding 4C I ask:

 

(1) are you certain that partner will think that 4C is forcing?

 

and rhetorically:

 

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

 

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.

[han]

I find this unlikely.

 

Has there ever been a unanimous forum thread about doubles? Aquahombre still has to point out that these modern takeout doublers got what they deserved.

 

No, don't answer that question gwnn, I meant this rhethorically as well.

[phil_20686]

It's all very well to call a double takeout, but if partner is always going to pass the double, then that's not a takeout double, it is a penalty double. If double is really takeout, then partner should not pass when he holds the most offensive hand possible.

 

To those bidding 4C I ask:

 

(1) are you certain that partner will think that 4C is forcing?

 

and rhetorically:

 

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

 

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.

 

To me 4C strongly suggests 5-5 in an ok hand. I dont think its forcing but expect partner to raise most of the time with decent values. I play 1N = 8-11 and would expect a raise with any hand with 8 Non spade HCP. Hands with spade ace will be tough for him but you cant have everything.

 

I like 4S as a bit. It shows a good hand with a spade void basically always, but carriers the inference that you are not 5-5, as with 55 and a v good hand you could just bid 5C. Some might think ths hand does not have enough, but I am not one of them, with ace ace ace, partner does not need much: KJx Kxx Kx JTxxx a routine NT bid where 7C a claimer, and probably this hand would not pull 3sx.

 

I think 4N is also on the table, one possible agreement is that 4N would show a good hand 64 in the minors here. I have not discussed the meaning of this bid with any of my partners.

 

 

I am not so worried about missing slam as much as missing game and picking up a paltry 300, which does not seem unlikely.

[han]

I like the way you are thinking Phil.

 

Would 4D be forcing? If not, could you be 1372 for your 4S bid?

 

Could 4NT be a hand like

 

xx

AQx

AKJ10xx

Ax

 

(Of course, clee would open 2NT).

[phil_20686]

(2) How will you end up in 3SX (or 3NT) when partner has AJ10x Kxx xxx xxx?

 

By the way, I think that there is a lot to be said to play this double as penalty. There is even more to be said for having a good agreement about which doubles are takeout and what it exactly means for a double to be takeout.

 

Surely a bad example you can bid 4N naturally over 4S, and that looks like its very good. And 5D will make most of the time diamonds are 3-2. You can test both suits for 3-3, or get a positional squeeze on, by refusing to cash the spade ace too early. What makes you think you are getting enough to compensate you for missing a cold 3N on this board?

[phil_20686]

I like the way you are thinking Phil.

 

I find it very hard to tell when you are being ironic.

 

Partner has effectively denied four hearts, so this auction is simpler than it would be if partner had doubled 1S or something. Hearts are out of the picture.

 

I think 4D is NF. I could be persauded otherwise, but seems like I might need it. Would expect partner to raise Most of times he has only one spade card.

 

I find constructions where I have two spades over 3S a little implausible. What is partner bidding 1N on without three spades, or four hearts, or diamond support worth mentioning, or a club suit worth mentioning? Ax Kxx Kxx xxxxx? possible, but rare.

 

If I bid 4N over 3S then corrected clubs to diamonds surely I just have a very strong single suiter in diamonds I guess, but I would probably just bid 5D with the given hand.

[han]

What makes you think you are getting enough to compensate you for missing a cold 3N on this board?

 

I don't think that anybody is getting to 3NT on this board, certainly not the 4C bidders.

 

If everything is perfect then we take 10 (!) tricks on defense for +1400. Although white against red opponents tend to be crazy, it's quite unlikely that everything is perfect, and we likely score +500 or +800. That's certainly better than 5D on a 3-2 split, and 4NT (admittedly a lot better than 5D) may go down. If partner has that hand I want to double 3S.

[han]

I find constructions where I have two spades over 3S a little implausible.

 

I play bridge in the Netherlands. It's possible to find opponents here who bid 3S white against red with only 8 spades. I understand that this is unheard of across the channel.

 

I was not ironic, I'm definitely going to discuss this hand with my regular partner.

[pooltuna]

no upgrade or downgrade partner needs to be able to evaluate our combined assets

Trust my partner to have a ♠ stopper so hamman eggs in one basket

[the_clown]

1. No way I am downgrading this, if I ever downgrade a 1NT opening I need to have a VERY poor 4333 like KQJ KQx Axxx QJx.

 

2. I would bid 4♠, a great hand with short ♠. I can see how 3NT or 3♠X could score better on some layouts, but I think that 4♠ describes my hand very well so why not just bid it?

[nigel_k]

On the first one, my test is to ask whether the hand is closer to an average 17 than an average 18. If people on this thread really think it is closer to an average 18 then I am a little surprised by that. There are worse hands, but 4333 with no intermediates and below average honour combinations is still very poor.

 

I get the impression that a lot of people's 1NT opening is half a point lighter than 15-17, so any above average 14 would qualify and any above average 17 is out. If that's your style then obviously it is not a 1NT opener.

 

On the second one you need an agreement. My preference is that all of these kind of doubles are for takeout, and in this kind of auction that means partner should bid when he has average (or slightly above average) defence compared to what can be expected from the auction to date. With that understanding I am comfortable doubling on this hand.

[JLOGIC]

You know what's quite accurate at assessing how good a balanced hand is? Milton Work Point count. Ok, I will downgrade hands that have bad spots, bad HH doubleton combos, and especially zero aces, or a lot of jacks that don't synergize with the other honors/spots well. This hand has only one jack, and honors that work well together, including 2 aces. Sure Qxx is not great, but there are a lot of quick tricks. Not only that, but even if this hand is maybe worth a downgrade for NT contracts (which I doubt), there is no way it is worth a downgrade for suit contracts. Unfortunately we will not be able to catch up later in the not-so-unlikely event that we end up in a suit contract, we will have simply started by grossly underbidding our hand.

 

I used to be all macho "I WILL NEVER DOWNGRADE" and I have recently downgraded a couple of times, but this is just not the hand. I feel like if you downgrade this, you should downgrade most 4333 18s, because this hand is definitely above average for a 4333 18 count even with no spot card.

[paulg]

You know what's quite accurate at assessing how good a balanced hand is? Milton Work Point count. Ok, I will downgrade hands that have bad spots, bad HH doubleton combos, and especially zero aces, or a lot of jacks that don't synergize with the other honors/spots well. This hand has only one jack ..

Just going to frame this. Perhaps my friends will stop laughing at me when I talk about the number of jacks in my hand ... of course there is plenty more to keep them amused.