Off shape and/or out of rang 1NT opening

[SimonFa]

I started playing Robot Tournaments about 6 weeks ago because I wanted more of a challenge from MBC to be able to analyse my own game in a competitive environment as it's not something I can regularly do because we don't get dealt hands too often at me bridge clubs.

 

Ignoring my own stupidity with bad bids and play, often just carelessness more than anything else, I have two areas of weakness:

 

1. I don't double enough. I've read Matchpoints, twice and will no doubt read it many times, so I no what to do, I either don't remember or erroneously talk myself out of it. I know I need to do a lot more doubling to fix this, even if it means getting it wrong a few times.

 

2. But the biggest problem I have is recognising when it is correct or at least a good idea to open off shape of out of range 1NT.

 

Are there any general rules I should be following or isn't it that simple?

 

Can anyone recommend any good articles or books as I would like to get a feel for this area of bidding as it really is costing at both IMPs and MPs, more so than my own stupidity.

 

As always, thanks in advance,

 

Simon

 

PS I suppose the other side of this debate is when not to open 1NT when in range and shape.

[wyman]

Simon,

 

You might want to look at some of jdonn's posts at Bridge Winners. He has a series there titled "Breakin' the Rules." In particular, he has an article on off-shape 1N and another on upgrades into and out of 1N.

 

http://bridgewinners.com/#series/breakin-the-rules

 

Even if not everyone agrees with him on every hand, the articles are coherent, and you'll get a reasonable general sense of why one might choose 1N over an alternate call (or vice versa). You can them experiment (and make mistakes! and post hands/generate discussions here!) to develop a style that fits you and/or your partnership.

[SimonFa]

Simon,

 

You might want to look at some of jdonn's posts at Bridge Winners. He has a series there titled "Breakin' the Rules." In particular, he has an article on off-shape 1N and another on upgrades into and out of 1N.

 

http://bridgewinners.com/#series/breakin-the-rules

 

Even if not everyone agrees with him on every hand, the articles are coherent, and you'll get a reasonable general sense of why one might choose 1N over an alternate call (or vice versa). You can them experiment (and make mistakes! and post hands/generate discussions here!) to develop a style that fits you and/or your partnership.

Thanks, thanks a really interesting article and discussion in the comments. I'll send the link to partner as well.

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[CSGibson]

In those Robot tournaments, I've found that its best to open 1N as often as possible (offshape, any non-horrible balanced 14, whatever) to keep the darn robot's sub-par declarer play from negatively impacting my score. The benefits of this strategy is no doubt helped by the robot tendency to make passive leads instead of attacking leads. In real life, you use your judgement.

[mgoetze]

Yes, playing with robots I will open pretty much any decent 14 to 17 hand 1NT if it is balanced, or 5422 except both majors, or 5431 with a stiff honor except both majors, or 4441 with a stiff honor, or 6m322, or even 6m331 with a stiff honor. (Note that balanced definitely includes 5M332.) I think I am still not opening 1NT as often as some of the better robot players.

 

An important note is not to upgrade too many hands to a 2NT opener, as GIB raises to 3NT very aggressively.

 

None of the above applies when playing with humans.

[BunnyGo]

A note on your other claimed weakness, the robots won't let you make penalty doubles most of the time...they generally don't sit for them, even with good defense, just too hard to program.

[phil_20686]

Do not play with robots much, but suspect they make much better decisions opposite limited hands, so opening 1N is disproportionately attractive.

[JLOGIC]

The better you play the more often you should open 1N with robots, because the more of an edge you will have declaring instead of gib. But I think most people kid themselves in thinking they are so much better than gib, the truth is gib plays his cards better than almost all human players. I am highly confident that if you entered gib into robot duplicates playing wtih 3 gibs, it would average over 50 %.

 

If you are still learning, and gib probably plays better than you, then I would just try to do the right actions and play down the middle. So I would not upgrade frivolously, or open 1N offshape.

 

That said, good times to upgrade to 1N are when you have a very good 5 card suit with good honors and good spot cards. Something like KT9 ATx AQJTx xx would be an obvious upgrade, simply because your hand is worth more than 15. I would tend to almost never upgrade a hand without a 5 card suit, so that is a good baseline to start. Spot cards in that 5 card suit, especially the ten, are very valuable. And not having stray jacks or queens is a positive.

 

As far as off shape, I'm not sure what you consider offshape, but imo:

 

-With 5422 and a 5 card major, I would almost never open 1N. If you wanted to, I would make it exactly 16 with Hx in both suits and very positional, but even then...

-With 5422 and 4 hearts and a 5 card minor, I would open 1N with 15 or 16 basically every time. You are not strong enough to reverse, and will have rebid problems. If you are a very prime 16 count you might consider reversing.

-With 5422 and 4 spades and a 5 card minor, personally I would almost always open 1N with 16 unless very prime. This is to avoid third round rebid problems like 1m 1H 1S 1N ? With 17 I would almost always open the minor, as my hand is probably worth 18 anyways. However if you were very slow with chunky doubletons you could consider 1N. With 15 it would depend on the nature of my hand, if it's positional 1N, if it's anti-positional/concentrated, 1m.

-With 6322 and a 6 card minor, my rule is if I'm comfortable opening 1m and rebidding 3m, I always do that. This means a good suit, and probably more than 15, depending on how prime my values are. If I am not comfortable with 1m 3m because of suit quality, or scattered values, I open 1N. This includes many 14 counts, as a 6 card suit is worth an upgrade to me.

-With a singleton I would only considering opening 1N with a very specific hand, 1435 or 1453 with a stiff K of spades and about 16 or 17. Maybe with stiff Q I'd do it. This is to avoid the obvious rebid problems. With 15 I would just open 1m and rebid 1N, downgrading stiff H anyways.

[mgoetze]

The better you play the more often you should open 1N with robots, because the more of an edge you will have declaring instead of gib. But I think most people kid themselves in thinking they are so much better than gib, the truth is gib plays his cards better than almost all human players. I am highly confident that if you entered gib into robot duplicates playing wtih 3 gibs, it would average over 50 %.

 

I think Fred has mentioned that they tried it and GIB averaged 55% or so. I do think GIB has some weaknesses in declarer play, though, for instance GIB definitely doesn't repeat finesses which worked the first time often enough. I'm sure there are some things GIB does better than I do, but I don't think they come up that often.

 

Another serious advantage of opening offshape 1NTs is that they will confuse the defending GIBs much more than they would confuse a human defender. See

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/47563-how-to-confuse-gib-for-fun-and-matchpoints/

[JLOGIC]

 

Another serious advantage of opening offshape 1NTs is that they will confuse the defending GIBs much more than they would confuse a human defender.

 

Absolutely, and this is magnified as your declarer skill goes up since you know how to make gib err from you having an "impossible" shape. For instance, I often open the wrong minor so gib miscounts, and I often respond wrong to stayman, especially if I have a 6 card major, etc. But I still think it's probably best for most people to just try to do the "right" things until they are definitely a better cardplayer than gib, and definitely skilled enough to exploit the advantage of having an impossible shape.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 To make regular successful doubles, you need to have to trust in partners bidding, you need to

be sure, that you know, what is going on.

A higher frequence of doubles, means the double get more speculative with regards to your hand.

I guess, you already make the doubles, where you have the set in your hand, your are on lead,

and they have no place to hide.

I am not sure, playing with robots will help you in the real world, since you are playing with

a human partner.

 

#2 Playing with Robots, I would doubt, that this is a good idea.

GIB uses simulation for the bidding, simulation works best, if the assumption the simulations is

based on happens to be true.

I am not sure, if GIBs assumes offshape / out of range hands, when you have opened NT.

Playing with a human partner - 54 hands (5 card minor, 4 card major) are good candidates for

of shape NT openings.

Similar 54 minor hands, with clubs being the 5 card suit, but this depends how agressive you

are using Weak Garbage Stayman with 44 in the majors, if you end up regular playing 42 fits,

the benefits get killed by the stupid contracts.

6322 hands with a bad 6 card minor suit are also candidates, maybe you need to eliminate the

hands with 22 in the majors.

Another point to consider are your methods after 1NT openings, if you happen to play shape asking

bids, than offshape openings are not a good idea.

 

I wont recommend out of range NT openers, upgrading by 1HCP is ok, downgrding is usually never done.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Just read some comments about the effects on the GIBs, that counter my above statements.

I dont have a lot of experience playing against the GIBs, so take my comments with a grain of salt,

I still think they have some worth, but as usual the world is neither white or black, the world is gray.

And my own card game is certainly not the best part of my game.