jillybean Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 1♠ :2N no alert3N :4♠ 3N was alerted and explained in the same breath as "no singleton, void, maximum hand" The pair play precision, the 2N bidder held Axxx,Axxx,Ax,Qxx. What do you think of the 4♠ bid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't see what you mean. The 2NT bidder alerted 3NT and explained it. Then he bid 4♠ (a feeble bid). why is this a ruling question? Did the 1♠ opener make an ugly face when he heard the word 'maximum', or some such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Nope, no faces.4♦/3♠ is obvious call playing std, I'm not sure that it is playing precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Gwnn, I guess the point is that 2NT was not alerted. The 3NT bid probably did mean, max, no shortness according to the system, but the UI is that opener might well have a 15 point hand, accepting the (what opener thought) invitation to 3NT. IMO, 4♣ is a clear LA to 4♠ and the UI clearly suggests 4♠. So, I would say that there is an infraction. However, I don't really understand how there would be damage, since a 4♣ rebid by responder after an invitational 2NT simply doesn't exist. I would think that opener would wake up once he sees the 4♣ bid. But it would be helpful to see the full deal to determine whether there was damage. Edit: I missed that they played Precision. In that case, I don't think that there is an LA to 4♠. Rik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Not being a precision buff, why bid 2N if you're not going to move over a max? Isn't part of the beauty of precision that you can just bid 4S on hands like this and opps have no idea whether you're strong or weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Quite frankly, in the context of a Precision opening 1♠ bid, the fact that responder didn't just jump to 4♠ over 1♠ means that he is making a slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Not being a precision buff, why bid 2N if you're not going to move over a max?Because perhaps you only wanted to move over a max with a shortness. Not saying that this hand was bid well, just that it is not inconsistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Because perhaps you only wanted to move over a max with a shortness. Not saying that this hand was bid well, just that it is not inconsistent. Sure, sorry. I had this hand in mind when I asked. My question is "why did responder bid 2N if he wasn't going to move over a max?" Was he really going to move over a max w shortness? It's suspect to me, given the UI. But I am wearing my tinfoil hat atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 If opener has KQxxxx x Kxx AKx, slam is pretty cold. That said, KQxxxx Kxx x AKx kinda sucks, and so does KQxxx Kxx QJxx x. Seems responder was looking for the magic hand. I agree there's no LA to 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 East has explained the agreements and placed the contract. There might be a problem, but not yet. There could be a problem, however, if West actually thought their agreement on 2NT was not J2N and now wakes up ---and does NOT move over 4S. Back in the day, 2NT in response to 1S was forcing in Precision or most other styles as well. 1S-2N3N-4S was a quantitative 3-card support slam try. (It still is for some of us old-fashioned types.) If West did not alert 2NT because he didn't know it was J2N; and, holding a 14 or fifteen point 5-3-3-2 hand uses East's explanation to pass 4S, then there is a problem. We don't have the information to know whether this is the case. All we know is that East properly explained what he thought were the agreements and bid accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 All we know is that East properly explained what he thought were the agreements and bid accordingly.We didn't ask for an explanation. & sorry, I don't have openers hand. (no HR's). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I was referring to the content of East's explanation, not the timing of it. I don't like the same-breath thing any more than you do, but am not sure if it was intended to wake opener up or what. If it was, and opener did use it, then things get serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Let me make sure what has happened: did responder alert the 3NT bid and explain it without being asked? If so, there are two possibilities: responder is an idiot who often does not follow the rules: responder is deliberately communicating with partner illegally. If there is any possibility of the latter lets give him a half-board PP to make sure it never happens again. The 4♠ bid also looks like unauthorised panic to me. But if we really believe 4♦ is not an LA I suppose he gets away with it. As for opener, he has UI from the unsolicited explanation of 3NT. But again it is unlikely he used the UI: in fact it would be far more likely he has used the UI if he went on over 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 There are lots of players who get confused between alerts and announcements, and announce things they shouldn't. They're not idiots, and they're not deliberately breaking the rules, they're just misinformed. The most common case is transfers to minors after partner opens 1NT -- many players will announce "transfer" rather than simply alert. They simply don't realize that the announcements are only for transfers to the majors. I always point this out to them, but I'll bet it goes in one ear and out the other (I guess that does make them somewhat idiotic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 The most common case is transfers to minors after partner opens 1NT -- many players will announce "transfer" rather than simply alert. They simply don't realize that the announcements are only for transfers to the majors. I always point this out to them, but I'll bet it goes in one ear and out the other (I guess that does make them somewhat idiotic).Especially since "transfer" really isn't a correct announcement or explanation if they alert..for most of them. They have different agreements about transfer to what...or what types of hands are possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Especially since "transfer" really isn't a correct announcement or explanation if they alert..for most of them. They have different agreements about transfer to what...or what types of hands are possible.Yeah, at least half of the time when they correctly just alert it, it still takes two questions to find out: Q: Please explainA: TransferQ: To? And if it's 2♠->3♣, you may need to ask another question to find out if it specifically shows clubs or it's pass/correct. Most of them are the usual novices, who simply don't realize that there are multiple transfer conventions. So I usually don't bother asking, I just look at their CC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 If they have one, and it's correctly filled out. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Let me make sure what has happened: did responder alert the 3NT bid and explain it without being asked? If so, there are two possibilities: responder is an idiot who often does not follow the rules: responder is deliberately communicating with partner illegally. If there is any possibility of the latter lets give him a half-board PP to make sure it never happens again.Yes, responder explained the bid without being asked. Responder is not an idiot, but rather a capable, long time player. PP's are very rare, I doubt that I will ever see one issued in a club game. There are lots of players who get confused between alerts and announcements, and announce things they shouldn't. They're not idiots, and they're not deliberately breaking the rules, they're just misinformed.This may be true among inexperienced players but definai(thanks Stephanie)tely untrue in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yes, responder explained the bid without being asked. Responder is not an idiot, but rather a capable, long time player. If this is the case, responder is definitely (correct spelling) up to something. What he hopes to achieve is unclear, but he at least wants to make sure opener realises that the 2NT bid was a spade raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I get this one: Me: 1NT, partner: 2NT, me: Alert! Opponent: You're supposed to say 'transfer'. :blink: :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I get this one: Me: 1NT, partner: 2NT, me: Alert! Opponent: You're supposed to say 'transfer'. :blink: :oAnd you politely thank them rather than teaching at the table yourself? At the tender age of 67+, I have not yet developed the self-restraint to do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Well, I'm younger than you, so.... B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yes, responder explained the bid without being asked. Responder is not an idiot, but rather a capable, long time player. PP's are very rare, I doubt that I will ever see one issued in a club game.I know they are very rare and I approve of them being very rare. Nevertheless there are certain occasions when PPs should be issued even in a club game and this is one of those occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I agree with David. I shall have to ask our local "I would never issue a PP in a club game" director if this would change her mind. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yes, responder explained the bid without being asked. Responder is not an idiot, but rather a capable, long time player. PP's are very rare, I doubt that I will ever see one issued in a club game.This sure seems like the time for that rarity, though. It seems like you're saying that he knew better, yet did it anyway. That's exactly what PPs are for. I sometimes go above the speed limit on the highway. I know it's against the law. If I get caught, I quietly accept my punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.