Pull or not?

[Fluffy]

Both are Match points problems, both happened during last weekend on a real tourney. You may not agree with some of your previous bids, but you will have to live with it :).

 

The first one:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=s10hq9742d753cqj103]133|100|Scoring: MP

N - E - S - W

1♣-ps-1♥-1♠

2♣-2♠-3♣-3♠

3ST-ps-???[/hv]

 

 

The second one:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=s10hq9742d753cqj103]133|100|Scoring: MP

N - E - S - W

1♣-ps-1♥-1♠

2♣-2♠-3♣-3♠

3ST-ps-???[/hv]

 

ps*: after about 13 seconds.

[Free]

1 ) 4♣

2 ) pass

[Chamaco]

auction 1

 

4C. This is not a slam try, but a rescue.

 

auction 2

 

4C would be stronger hand. It was much better to jumpshift preemptively to 2 spades or 3 spades after opps double.

As it is, I pass and rescue 4C if they double us.

[flytoox]

pass the first one, -2 will not be too bad. opp's 3S should be cold.

 

with the second hand, I will pull to 4C. Let's make sure we get a plus.

[nikos59]

Well, if I have a partner opposite (and not some

bidding machine) I would never dream removing 3NT,

at least not before getting doubled (and even then).

 

n

[Chamaco]

Well, if I have a partner opposite (and not some

bidding machine) I would never dream removing 3NT,

at least not before getting doubled (and even then).

 

n

In the first auction, we KNOW with virtual certainty we do not have values for 3NT: pard has made a passable bid (2 clubs) before bidding 3NT.

In my opinion this makes it a clear rescue to 4C.

 

In the second auction, pard has made a strong bid, so I agree that we should credit pard for a strength that may give 3NT some play.

[dogsbreath]

Agree completely with Chamaco..

In the 1st case p's 2c tells us we dont have 3nt values, in the second case p clearly thinks he has AND didnt try for 4S... so 1) 4C 2) pass

Rgds dog

[jtfanclub]

The first one looks like one of my P's "shock" 3NT bids. Designed to shock the hell out of the opponents.

 

You'd be amazed at how often it works.

 

I'm passing....I think we'll take at least one trick, and that's all we need for a good board.

 

If they X, I run to 4♣. I know they have 4♠, but I see no reason to let them know that. If I run to 4♣ immediately, I may as well shout it with a bullhorn.

[luke warm]

1) pass

2) pass

[Fluffy]

Well, if I have a partner opposite (and not some

bidding machine) I would never dream removing 3NT,

at least not before getting doubled (and even then).

 

n

Your partner is a WBF world master :wub:, you were going 4th on the third and last season of a 150 pairs tournament when these 2 hands arised, you may win from 1000 to 2500€ as the price :).

[Chamaco]

The first one looks like one of my P's "shock" 3NT bids.  Designed to shock the hell out of the opponents.

 

You'd be amazed at how often it works.

 

I'm passing....I think we'll take at least one trick, and that's all we need for a good board.

 

If they X, I run to 4♣.  I know they have 4♠, but I see no reason to let them know that.  If I run to 4♣ immediately, I may as well shout it with a bullhorn.

If you play vs good players:

 

1) they'll double for sure and u'll have to run to 4 clubs anyways, disclosing in any case your hand

 

2) if after you run, they bid 4 spades, your pass of 3NT (which should show some values) may as well get partner to double their 4 spades

 

Bridge is a partnership game, sometimes gambles do work, but many times deception strategy will deceive partner rather than opponents.

 

Making the "honest" bid will sometimes miss the opportunity for some nice stealing, but at least the decisions will be shared together with partner rather than being one-sided.

 

The natural bid here is 4C right away.

Sometimes we want to make a smart bid at all costs, but I do not think it's the best path to effective bridge in the long run.

[Guest Jlall]

on the first hand its clear we dont have even half the deck...i escape. On the second hand a 4C bid would not be an escape, it would be a slam try. So you can try pass or 5C. I find it very close, because my shape is screaming for suit play. However, the 2 jacks and the soft spade values seem to call for playing 3N. Change my hand to soemthing prime and pure like AT9xxx xx x xxxx and i will bid 5C. As an asides, i think basing your auction about what the opponents will do (X you or not) is very unsound strategy. If they cant beat 4C, they wont X 3N. They will only X you if they can set both or if they are unsure whether 3N will make. You should just figure out what you think you can make and try to play there. Passing 3N on teh first but running if they X makes no sense, you already know you cant make 3N (which is why you run when they X) so why not bid it in the first place. 3N still wont make, even if they dont X :wub:

[whereagles]

First hand I pull it out. Second hand depends on who's pard and opps. If pard is an overbidder, I pull out, otherwise I leave it in. Just because pard is a grandmaster doesn't mean he doesn't have a personality :)

[Chamaco]

on the first hand its clear we dont have even half the deck...i escape. On the second hand a 4C bid would not be an escape, it would be a slam try. So you can try pass or 5C. I find it very close, because my shape is screaming for suit play. However, the 2 jacks and the soft spade values seem to call for playing 3N. Change my hand to soemthing prime and pure like AT9xxx xx x xxxx and i will bid 5C. As an asides, i think basing your auction about what the opponents will do (X you or not) is very unsound strategy. If they cant beat 4C, they wont X 3N. They will only X you if they can set both or if they are unsure whether 3N will make. You should just figure out what you think you can make and try to play there. Passing 3N on teh first but running if they X makes no sense, you already know you cant make 3N (which is why you run when they X) so why not bid it in the first place. 3N still wont make, even if they dont X :D

Ditto.

Agree on every point by Justin.

Don't let the opponents decide for you and your pard.

Describe faithfully your hand, your pard will love you even if you score bad :)

[nikos59]

To Fluffy:

 

I presume you know the results and I expect you to reveal

them after a while, when everyone will have had the opportunity

to comment.

[helium]

4clubs

4clubs

 

kenneth

[xx1943]

1) 4♣

2) pass

 

Nothing more to say. I agree with Justin and Chamaco.

 

Al

[HeartA]

If ♣QJ were replaced by CK, I will pass 3NT on first hand. Partner may have

♠Kx, ♥xx, ♦AKx, ♣Axxxxxx. Since I don't have an entry to finesse ♣ even if CK on side, I will pull 3NT to 4C.

 

I will bid 4C as well with the second hand. If 3N could be made, I don't see a problem with 5C or 4S. Maybe we have a slam.

[Fluffy]

I disagree with justin in 1 point, 4♣ on the second wouldn´t be an slam try.

 

Why?, because a opponent has bid X+3♥ vulnerable vs not.

[Fluffy]

Congratulations to flytoox, who was the only one to get wich I think were the best responses as the cards lied.

 

I pulled out as many suggested on first one, knowing it would be hard to make, but it would had proably made, the killing defence is very very hard, and I doubt it would be find. Here an apoximation of the scores for each result as I remember:

 

+400 = 95%

+130 = 60%

-50 = 35%

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skq3h5dk108cak9752&w=sa9752haj863da9c8&e=sj864hk10dqj642c64&s=s10hq9742d753cqj103]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Nobody copied my bidding on the second one sadly :-(

 

I choosed to bid 5♣, hoping partner to have ♠x/♥Kxx/♦Axx/♣AKQxxx. Not tday!, it was doubled and 3 aces where catched, still a good score since the full deal was:

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skq3h5dk108cak9752&w=sa9752haj863da9c8&e=sj864hk10dqj642c64&s=s10hq9742d753cqj103]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

3NT leads to a quick -200 and a bottom score.

 

The problem about playing 4♣ is that it can be competed to 4♦/♥ wich makes and you will hardly bid 5♣ after it then.

 

And the scores...

 

+130 95%

-50 75%

-100 60%

-130 40%

-200 10%

-620 5%

[whereagles]

haha.. gonzalo, your father is very optimist B)

[inquiry]

Even seeing the hands, given the bidding up to 3NT, I agree wtih Mauro and justin's logic and bids on each. Maybe we could discuss north's bidding at sometime.

 

Ben

[jtfanclub]

 

If you play vs good players:

 

1) they'll double for sure and u'll have to run to 4 clubs anyways, disclosing in any case your hand

 

Ah, but here's the trick. First of all, not all 3NT bids are shock, of course. Partner could easily have his bid, and you just gave us a top by doubling us. Partner can also redouble (balancing seat is Xing, or I wouldn't have a choice) to say that his hand is powerful enough that you've just given us a top board, whether you pull or not.

 

But the more common case is, I bid 3♣ for one of three reasons:

 

1. I'm pre-empting on very little, hoping to confuse the opponents. Doesn't apply here- they've exchanged too much information to be confused.

 

2. I have four or more clubs, shortness in one of their suits, and just enough points for the LOTT to say I should bid. I think we have no chance of game, which says a lot over a two level overcall.

 

3. I have a hand strong enough that I'd consider an action double X at the two level if I had it available, but I don't, so I'll push the bidding to the three level and then do something. This hand may have Hx or xxx in partner's suit, and always has length and strength in their suits.

 

When partner bids a shock 3NT (and again, he's not telling me if it's for real or shock) he thinks we'll make 3NT if I have hand 3, and they'll make game if they have hand one or two.

 

A common hand for a shock 3NT bid, with the opponents bidding the red suits, would be:

 

Axx

x

xx

KJTxxxx

 

This is a gamble, but it's hardly a psyche. If you X it on principle, don't be surprised if partner takes the first nine tricks on principle. There is no deception going on here: partner honestly believes we have a shot at 3NT. It's not hard to construct a 9 hcp hand for me where 3NT is cold. More commonly, 3NT is down 1 or 2 if you lead one red suit (which may or may not be a good board for us), and makes going away if you lead the other.

 

2) if after you run, they bid 4 spades, your pass of 3NT (which should show some values)

 

It doesn't. The only time I pull 3NT immediately is when I think we can make 4♣ but not 3NT. Partner knows this.

 

The natural bid here is 4C right away.

 

Agreed. That doesn't mean it's the right bid. Make the opponents guess. They have three choices, and two of them give us a top board. Even if they guess right, we're likely getting an average board.

 

EDIT:

 

I have just seen one of the young Hacketts (playing for England against Poland) open 1♥ as dealer game all with

 

♠A542 ♥KJ43 ♦JT874

 

Eric 

 

 

(Inquiry:) I would not be surprised if well more than half the field opens this hand... would be interesting test to see how "pro's" play. This is a Zar 26 count....but only 9 hcp.

 

If you're playing against pros who open with hands like this, you're going to regret pullingn 3NT more often than not.

[EarlPurple]

on the first hand, 3NT can be beaten in 3 ways:

 

- lead a diamond. Partner takes the ace and plays another one. Easy 2 off.

- On a spade lead perhaps a heart shift? 1 off.

- West doubles 3NT which asks for a lead of dummy's suit. Heart duly led, now no way back to East's diamonds if you lead ace and another, but at least you beat the contract, and doubled to boot.

[Fluffy]

haha.. gonzalo, your father is very optimist :)

Yeah well, I had some extra info here wich I hidden to you :lol:, sorry for that, any way optimistic or not he practically won the tourney by himself (I played kinda poorly).