Convention Cards

[gartinmale]

Having played EHAA in the ACBL (albeit never in a serious event*), we always pre-alert as follows:

 

"We can, will, and even frequently must open and overcall extremely undisciplined weak twos, with no requirements on strength nor length save 5 cards in the suit and 6-12 points".

 

We also tell people that 1NT is 10-12, that our 1-level overcalls are stronger than they might expect, and that we have no forcing opening bid, although these things are not pre-alertable.

 

We also alert non-forcing responses when we're supposed to.

 

We've occasionally gotten pretty annoyed when we overcall 1X and one of our opponents says "Now remember, partner, that's 13+ points", but other than that have had no problems.

 

 

 

 

 

*Okay, we played EHAA while our teammates played Phantom Club in a pretty reasonable one-session BAM once. It, uh, didn't work out very well.

[TimG]

while you may well have chosen to pass if you had known 1NT was forcing, most people wouldn't make this distinction

I think it quite reasonable to consider things differently after a non-forcing 1NT and a forcing 1NT. I've had discussions with partners about the differences. I've had reference to the difference documented in system notes. Maybe that's going too far, but I expect that most thinking players evaluation the situation differently after a forcing 1NT and a non-forcing 1NT.

[crazy4hoop]

One problem, and I think Debbie Rosenberg pointed it out some months ago (my apologies Debbie if I am attributing this to the wrong person) is that the score card is on the back of the CC (in ACBL) so players think they have to keep them to keep score. Granted, they should just realize that they can use another CC to score while keeping the actual CC they play in a place where the opponents can refer to it most easliy. One solution could be to stop printing the score card on the back of the CC and to put in its place a more general description of methods cited by Phil (or is it Plol?) containing, but not necessarily limited to, the 5 items he likes to check out at the start of the round. Score cards could be printed on a separate sheet or sheets (and even be 2-sided for those who wish to save paper). If need be, players can still keep their score cards in those plastic holders that they so desperately have to have and be returned their CC at the end of the round. I know this is no cure-all but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[jillybean]

The (ACBL) score card is on the back of the CC but a seperate CC or score sheet is used to keep the score.

You can only score on your CC once and most people don't even do that. I write system notes on the score side of my CC.

[blackshoe]

The (ACBL) score card is on the back of the CC but a seperate CC or score sheet is used to keep the score.

You can only score on your CC once and most people don't even do that. I write system notes on the score side of my CC.

 

Yes, of course. Do you offer your card to your opponents at the start of a round? Where do you keep it on the table? Do you keep it on the table? :)

 

The problem is that the culture and regulations in the ACBL dictate that cards, even when properly filled out, are kept close by players, not by their opponents. Of course, it doesn't help that those opponents aren't typically interested in what's on the card. I once had an opponent tell me, after I suggested that she look on our card instead of badgering my partner, that "I don't look at convention cards, I ask questions". :blink: :o

[Bad_Wolf]

Essentially, what you said was that you made a terrible bid, and because of the bid your partner got off to a terrible opening lead that gave up a trick. Then you argued that the reason for your terrible bid was the failure to alert a forcing notrump that you assumed, without asking, was a nonforcing notrump. The fact that you made a terrible bid in and of itself has nothing to do with the alert or failure to alert. So, after making a terrible call and getting a terrible result because of your terrible call, you complain to the director who agrees with you that you wouldn't have made the terrible call if the 1NT call had been alerted. And the director changes the result to give you your trick back!

 

Totally absurd. Perhaps your opponents should be given some penalty for their failure to alert, but you should not be allowed a double shot with your bid. In other words, if the bid had worked in your favor, you would not complain and the score would stand, but if the bid worked out badly, you complain and are given an adjustment. The argument that there was a link between the non-alert and your terrible bid is strained, to say the least. But the director let you get your trick back! Absurd.

 

Perhaps they will remember to alert next time.

[jillybean]

Yes, of course. Do you offer your card to your opponents at the start of a round? Where do you keep it on the table? Do you keep it on the table? :)

 

The problem is that the culture and regulations in the ACBL dictate that cards, even when properly filled out, are kept close by players, not by their opponents. Of course, it doesn't help that those opponents aren't typically interested in what's on the card. I once had an opponent tell me, after I suggested that she look on our card instead of badgering my partner, that "I don't look at convention cards, I ask questions". :blink: :o

I do offer my cc in team games, after I ask the opps for theirs. During club games I keep mine on the table, next to or under the bidding box. Easy reach for my rho. :) I have seen others keep it on the floor, in their bag, on the table in front of them and perhaps best yet, unfolded on their knee so that when they are looking at their hand they can easily sneek a peek. I remember my first duplicate games trying to sneak a look at my card. I am not sure I knew it was against the laws (what laws) but I did know enough to know it wasn't done.

 

It would be most useful for pairs to swap cc's but I doubt that we will ever see that happen.

[barmar]

Even if you use separate cards for conventions and scoring, many players use a convention card holder: a plastic case where you can put the convention card on one side and the score card on the other. However, in my experience this has never created a problem letting opponents look at my CC. It needs to be on the table so you can score on it, so it's convenient for opponents to grab.

[Trinidad]

Move to England. As I understand it, exchanging CC's at the beginning of a round is common practice over there.

I think he can move anywhere he likes, as long as it is outside the ACBL.

 

The only places I have ever played where CCs are not exchanged are in beginner clubs (where there are no CCs) and the ACBL (where there are CCs, but they are kept away from the opponents).

 

Rik

[mgoetze]

I think he can move anywhere he likes, as long as it is outside the ACBL.

 

The only places I have ever played where CCs are not exchanged are in beginner clubs (where there are no CCs) and the ACBL (where there are CCs, but they are kept away from the opponents).

 

In Germany, most people at club games don't even have a CC they could exchange, much less any interest in seeing mine. It is different for tournament and league play, though.

[Vampyr]

Even if you use separate cards for conventions and scoring, many players use a convention card holder: a plastic case where you can put the convention card on one side and the score card on the other. However, in my experience this has never created a problem letting opponents look at my CC. It needs to be on the table so you can score on it, so it's convenient for opponents to grab.

 

 

It's kind of weird though, if they have to give it back to you between hands for you to score on the other side.

 

Anyway where is there space to describe your methods except in the back?

[blackshoe]

I have often wondered if the people who designed the ACBL CC deliberately left little space on the card for descriptions on the theory that "if there's not enough space to describe it, you can't play it". :o :blink:

[barmar]

It's kind of weird though, if they have to give it back to you between hands for you to score on the other side.

Opponents don't need to hold on to your card, they just grab it when they need it: at the beginning of the round to look over your general system, when you make a bid they want to look up (although 99% of the time they just ask verbally), and when they become declarer to look at your carding.

[gnasher]

Opponents don't need to hold on to your card, they just grab it when they need it: at the beginning of the round to look over your general system, when you make a bid they want to look up (although 99% of the time they just ask verbally), and when they become declarer to look at your carding.

That means that you have to tell the whole table what it is that you want to know. The advantage of exchanging convention cards is that you can look at the card without making it obvious that you're doing so, thereby avoiding either transmitting UI or giving the opponents information to which they're not entitled.

[Vampyr]

That means that you have to tell the whole table what it is that you want to know. The advantage of exchanging convention cards is that you can look at the card without making it obvious that you're doing so, thereby avoiding either transmitting UI or giving the opponents information to which they're not entitled.

 

Maybe barmar's assumption is that the ACBL card, with its checkboxes and lack of space for description, can be absorbed in one glance. :)

 

But it is different with cards that are a lot larger and have a lot more information on them.

[mycroft]

Yeah, my Pre-Alert was "1NT is 10-12, all seats, all vulnerabilities, and our opening 2 bids are highly variable in playing strength - 6-12 High, but could be much weaker and much stronger than yours." And my explanation on the Alert was "All hands with 6-12 HCP and a 5+ card suit are opened. 95% of them are opened 2 of the longest suit - our choice with 5-5 and 6-6." I added that last when somebody, quite reasonably, got upset when the first two sentences didn't make him understand that AQJxxx -- JTxxxx 7 was a 2♠ opener, and misdefended.

 

If they asked about the other 5%, I'd tell them :-)

[barmar]

Even if you exchange cards and hold on to them, I think it will usually be pretty obvious to everyone when you look at it. So I don't think there's that much UI difference between exchanging them and asking for the card when you need it. Unless you look at the card at other random times, to mask the times you actually care.

[billw55]

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.

[blackshoe]

What was proper? You asked to see his card, he should have shown it to you. Did he have one?

[aguahombre]

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.

Yeh, not clear what was proper from your anecdote. But our experience playing against such caliber of player is that when they deviate from exact protocol it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt if we go along.

[gnasher]

Once at a tournament, during an auction, I asked to see the CC of an op who is a multiple national champion. The reply was "just ask me". I had worried that a spoken question might pass information to partner or the other op ... but I went ahead and asked, figuring he knew what he was talking about. Nothing came of it, but I still wonder what was proper.

I think the proper response to this would be to say "Director please".

 

Forcing you to ask instead of reading the card gives him an unfair advantage. It may not be a very big advantage, but it's still significant. I don't care how famous he is - he should bring a convention card. If he has, for some reason, not got one, his first word should be "Sorry", not a condescending instruction to do something you don't want to do.

[gnasher]

Yeh, not clear what was proper from your anecdote. But our experience playing against such caliber of player is that when they deviate from exact protocol it doesn't come back to bite us in the butt if we go along.

If you ask a question and that tells the opponents something about your hand, are you hoping that they'll disregard the information?

 

If you ask a question and that tells your partner something about your hand, are you hoping that partner will ignore his obligations under the rules about UI?

[Vampyr]

If you ask a question and that tells the opponents something about your hand, are you hoping that they'll disregard the information?

 

Do you think that this is a deliberate tactic by the player alluded to and others?

[billw55]

Yes, he had a CC present. The card was not situated in such a way that I could just look at it, so I asked.

 

Clearly it was not a tactic. Maybe he just wanted to keep the game moving or something.

 

To be specific, he had opened 1♣ on my left and now his partner was about to declare some other contract. I held a club suit that I was considering leading, and wanted to investigate the meaning of his opening bid prior to doing so - specifically, implied length. After our brief (and entirely amicable) exchange, I did ask aloud, although this could conceivably be a clue about my hand to both partner and declarer. There was no subsequent indication that the play was affected in any way. Although even if there was, I am certain I would not have had the nerve to call the director.

[gnasher]

Do you think that this is a deliberate tactic by the player alluded to and others?

I doubt if it's often done in order to gain advantage. In fact, it's not often done at all, is it? I've never had someone refuse to hand me their convention card.