dwar0123 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Curious what type of hand north(me) described and what you would bid with south's hand. [hv=pc=n&s=st874hk98dqjcaq86&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1hp1sp4hp]133|200[/hv] Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 4♥ shows just south of a 2♣ opener. Considering I have two nice cards and some fillers for partner, I would make another move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 4H shows a little bit too good to open 4H, something like xx KQJTxxx AJxx --- would definitely qualify or x QJT9xxxx Ax AJ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Opener (you) seem to be showing a hand with 7 hearts and a KNR of around 19. 5C now, as responder would be fine, and let partner make the next mistake. I don't like the 1S response with L.R. in hearts and everything but spade values, but that wasn't asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I play this 4♥ exactly as Justin said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwar0123 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Thanks, I love clearing up these many tiny misunderstandings in my understandings of auctions. In this case I was wrong and partner was right! Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 The difference of opinion might be affected by whether the pair is using a forcing club system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 I assume you are playing std? Playing 2/1 I respond 2♣ / 1♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Playing 2/1 I usually wait for a G.F. responding hand to bid 2/1. That one has a KNR of 10.7 and a LTC of 8, putting it in the game invitation range. But, regardless of whether I would have tried a forcing NT with the 3-card limit raise, the real question was what the 4H rebid by opener showed. There is a split between those who believe it shows a minimum with seven hearts (with which we would rebid 3H) and those who believe it is a 7-bagger with just below 2C opening strength. Opposite the first one, we would have to pass 4H; opposite the second one, it seems right to make a bit of a slam move with 5C. BTW, "KNR" is the Kaplan/Rubens hand evaluation calculator...and LTC refers to another guide to evaluation called Losing Trick Count. This is for those reading the forum who might be curious about the jargon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Yu Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Pass now, not enough control to continue. I expect this sequence to show around 3 keycards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 4H shows a little bit too good to open 4H, something like xx KQJTxxx AJxx --- would definitely qualify or x QJT9xxxx Ax AJ.Didn't you use to play this as a strong two-ish hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 You need a bid to show a 1-suited hand that is too strong to rebid 3♥. Traditionally that bid was 4♥ but it is also possible to show this hand artificially. If you do show the hand artificially then 4♥ is instead what Justin said, in essence a hand that wants to goto 4♥ on shape rather than power. Undiscussed I would tend to assume the stronger type though, especially playing opposite a random B/I player. For your rebid, if partner is showing the distributional hand type then you have a clear pass. If partner is showing the strong hand type then I think you are worth a 5♣ rebid. Should I be scared to agree with the agua-man? or should he be scared! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 If we are going to make a slam try, 5C is a good bid here - encouraging partner to show a diamond control. Let's try "Culbertson's Perfect Minimum" - construct the minimum hand needed for slam to be good, and see if it's at the bottom of partner's range: AA10xxxxxxKxKx That's a minimum 4H bid (some might even bid only 3), so partner should have enough to make slam and we should bid 5C. If playing 5 card majors, start with 4H/2NT (Jacoby) or a very conservative 3H - "support with support" is a good motto. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 4♥ shows just south of a 2♣ opener. Considering I have two nice cards and some fillers for partner, I would make another move. is this a joke? Sometimes I dont understand your american humour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 It's definitely spelled American humor and although Phil is a very funny man, I suspect that this one was unintentional. I know that this is the BI forum but 1S on this hand also strikes me as really wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 It's definitely spelled American humor and although Phil is a very funny man, I suspect that this one was unintentional. Lies. For I am English, and mine is the spelling that matters, Colonial Heathen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Lies. For I am English, and mine is the spelling that matters, Colonial Heathen.Did you have to borrow the spelling from the neighbor because there is no equivalent word where you are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Did you have to borrow the spelling from the neighbor because there is no equivalent word where you are? Indeed, it came across with the Romans courtesy of Hellenic Medicine. It was one of the oldest stable spellings in the English Language before you corrupted it :(. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 is this a joke? Sometimes I dont understand your american humour. Well, I've never thought Benny Hill or Michael Palin were that funny either :P My interpretation of the auction has matched what the bid meant for about the first 60 years of bridge. Only in recent history did someone state that it shows a hand with minimum HCP and a lot of playing strength and for many players, I would expect this to be normal. However in my partnerships, I still like it to be strong. This way, I do not have to hold my breath with a 3♥ rebid, and I do not have to invent a SJS on a fragment in order to create a force. I also don't have to start opening an 18 counts with 8 tricks 2♣, just to be able to play these methods. In the actual auction, both opponents have passed. Who am I trying to preempt? Do I really expect to make 4♥ with the 2740 when partner cannot move over 2♥? I mean, if thats what your hand evaluation says, then go for it, but I don't think the hand is a game bid myself. I agree with Han about not bidding 1♠ with this hand. I also can see myself opening the subject hand 4♥ fwiw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 BTW, "KNR" is the Kaplan/Rubens hand evaluation calculator... and LTC refers to another guide to evaluation called Losing Trick Count. This is for those reading the forum who might be curious about the jargon.Are these tools frequently employed by B/I players? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Are these tools frequently employed by B/I players?Luckily, not LTC. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Are these tools frequently employed by B/I players?Not at the table, hopefully. But they certainly can be used as a guide or source for post mortems or for study of the decision making process. There are actually folks whose bidding system is designed solely on the LTC principle, but I certainly don't recommend it. KNRODRLTCLTT and others are concepts/tools for judging the value of a hand in battle, not really meant to be styles or system methods in and of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Didn't you use to play this as a strong two-ish hand? Hah, yes this was actually some massive knowledge hole that I had that was outted on the forums. I posted once that I thought 4H showed a hand like Phil suggested, and it became apparent that I was wrong, and then I asked my real life friends also and they had the same reaction as phil had to phil in this thread ("Are you retarded jlall?"). Obv I would just jumpshift now with a hand like that. Gwnn if you could find that thread I would be happy :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flem72 Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Indeed, it came across with the Romans courtesy of Hellenic Medicine. It was one of the oldest stable spellings in the English Language before you corrupted it :(. Older than "neighbour"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Are these tools frequently employed by B/I players? Hmm, difficult question. The people who use these tools usually don't describe themselves as B/I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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