han Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I like 5NT better than 6C, partner could even be 6-2-3-2. If we have a 5-4 club fit we'll get there after 5NT anyway. If we have a 5-3 club fit, we'll likely have a fit elsewhere that is at least as long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 HighLow, there are essentially 2 schools of thought on what this double means at the 5 level. The more traditional is card-showing, effectively asking partner to do something reasonably intelligent. The more modern solution is to play take-out doubles at all levels. Robson and Segal argue for the latter method in their excellent book on competitive bidding. You may not understand why this approach is good but many world class players do use it. Whatever your meaning for double, if you try to add hands such as your example - weak with length in the opponents' suit - into the double then you are spreading yourself too thin. On the subject of forum etiquette, if you publically announce that only your chosen method is reasonable even though world champion players play the alternative then you are likely to attract a seriously negative response. There are many ways of approaching bidding in the game of bridge and it would be extremely arrogant for anyone to claim that only their way works. I doubt even someone like Rodwell would make such a claim. It is worse if you make a personal attack while apparently making such a claim. While noone here can honestly say they know whether you are a good or bad player, or merely one of the nameless intermediates, I can assure you that following such a course will not impress anyone. Making high-quality posts that are helpful, thought-provoking and insightful on the other hand will quickly endear you to many. I look forward to you showing us your excellent bridge ability in such posts in the future. Edit: @Codo, at least one member of these forums regularly describes themselves as an expert. More commonly, one of our resident experts describes another that way to a poster that appears not to be aware of it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Making high-quality posts that are helpful, thought-provoking and insightful on the other hand will quickly endear you to many. I usually prefer humorous over thought-provoking posts. I'm already thinking so much these days that I have trouble sleeping, I prefer my thoughts not to be further provoked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Phil, I still can't find the stickies. Maybe it's because it's 4:30AM and I'm not interpreting directions correctly. Stickies are forum threads that stay at the top of the forum, yes? (i.e., not replies within the individual thread that are at the top). A/E forum doesn't seem to have any such pinned threads at the top. Am I missing something? I am a total newbie to forums. And my apologies to anyone I might have offended --> I guess when someone uses the phrase "everyone of a decent standard" they may not have meant any offense, but I definitely took it that way. I may not have the best bidding system in the world or a litany of championships under my belt, but I am excellent at this game and can't see myself ever playing a double in that situation as being primarily takeout. It can show cards; it can show quick tricks; but if I were interested in slam the last thing I personally would bid at the 5 level is a double of the opponent's very ambitious and long-suited preempt. I posted a hyperlink to one of a 'pinned' threads by diana_eva. If you click on it you will be redirected there. For convenience, here is the 1st post in the thread, and I have highlighted a portion that is relevant: I have complained about the Forum regulars attitude toward newcomers quite a few times, but the solution is probably to help them out with a few basic netiquette tips. I am rather new to all this myself, so please add your own tips and tricks for successful BBF-ing: Read the BBF Terms of ServiceLurk more. Lurking is when you hang around without contributing so that when you are ready to contribute, you know what to do, and what not to do. This usually avoids getting sarcastic replies from the Forum regulars.Before posting something run a Search and make sure the subject you have in mind hasn't been covered already. There is a Search box at the top of the window. Google Search is even better. Click here to see How to use Google to search the BBFDon't type in CAPS. This is perceived as rude and it is the equivalent of "yelling".Don't abuse fonts, emoticons, suit symbols or memes. Don't post old memes.Don't post in specialized Forums unless you are qualified to do that. Sarcastic replies in the Advanced - Expert Forums for example are not likely to be moderated.Get started in the Beginner Intermediate Forums if you have bridge questions. You will get thoughtful answers from the experts.If you feel like posting something silly please go ahead - there is a Water Cooler Forum just for that.When you get in trouble or run out of arguments post a cat picture. Edit: Removed suggestion to not use old memes.Edit: Added Google SearchEdit: This is already mentioned in the Forum Rules, but do not post Abuse issues in the Forums. If someone is rude, or if you suspect a pair is cheating, or if anything else bothers you about other BBO members send a mail to abuse@bridgebase.com. They have the tools to investigate and take the necessary measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Looks like an easy 6C, but I can see how pass can work better. 5NT also comes to mind and might be a better bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I would be thinking more along the lines of if I should just bid 7 rather than settle for 6. I would just settle for 6 but if you gave me the CQ I'm sure I'd bid 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microcap Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Rex and I are having a similar major fight over the following hand: As usual, it has two parts from both perspectives. First, you hold: [hv=pc=n&n=s97543hj2dt64ckq2]133|100[/hv] Partner opens 1♦, promising at least 4 cards and likely an unbalanced hand. Now annoying RHO tosses in a 4♠ preempt. Do you take action? If so, what is it? Of course the followup is: You hold [hv=pc=n&s=s4hakq3dakj972cj2]133|100[/hv] and the auction is 1♦- LHO 4♠. If partner doubles, what do you do? If partner passes, what do you do? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Do you take action? If so, what is it?If partner doubles, what do you do?If partner passes, what do you do?Pass.4NT.X playing the modern style, 4NT playing something more traditional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 +1 for P/4N/X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think its worth considering P/4N/4N. The south hand has so much strength in two suits that its not really suitable for a t/o double imo, as often when partner passes oppo might have a stiff heart and 4S will be cold and you will have had ten tricks in a red suit. Its a difficult decision after 1d 4s p p for sure, but I am thinking that 4N might well be right. Maybe tomorrow I'll wake up and think double is better. I didnt see the vul, but certainly green vs red I will be bidding 4N I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think double after partner passes stands out, I really dislike 4NT. Pass with partner's hand and 4NT after the double are also pretty obvious, unless you play penalty doubles. Microcap, to my mind there is nothing to argue about. You can agree to play penalty doubles after 1D - 4S or you play takeout/cards doubles. Either way I think the answers are obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 HighLow21 Ok now I know how I look when I try to argue hopeless position with players who actually have a clue :)At least I try to have back-up in actually knowing what good players play before I try this :)As to the problem. 6♣ is imo the choice. We need to flop too much to try a grand. KQx K♥ to begin with and 4th club or K♠ for 13th trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm no expert, I just enjoy the game, but X for me is as the others say. Takeout orientated at low levels, more-than-expected-values orientated at high levels. It doesn't show a diamond stack, so I pass with nothing much to say, and bid if I have. Here I am very happy to bid when partner has values. Having said that, some people at some local clubs are prone to way over-preempting. If I know the offender, I am more inclined to pass. Incidentally, I just read the newbies tips, and it says "if you run out of arguments post a cat". Has Mr Ace run out of arguments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Actually, when Josh Donn was posting regularly on BBO fora, he posted the fattest cat I have seen in a while. And he will never run out of arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 One thing that has been implied but not stated in the above posts is that when you have a pure penalty double over one of these high-level preempts you have to pass. If partner reopens with a double, great - you can convert it. It just makes too much sense to use the double as card showing rather than as a penalty double. You just have to get used to the idea that you are going to miss out on a juicy penalty in those rare instances where you happen to hold a trump stack over a 4 or 5 level preempt and partner does not reopen with a double. It is almost the same as playing takeout doubles at the one-level. Sometimes RHO opens 1♠ and you hold the KQJTxx of spades. I don't think anyone will argue that a double of 1♠ should be for penalties (although that was true in the early years of bridge - and I may be talking about auction bridge - unfortunately, I lost my authority on the early days of contract bridge a couple of years ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 It is almost the same as playing takeout doubles at the one-level. Sometimes RHO opens 1♠ and you hold the KQJTxx of spades. I don't think anyone will argue that a double of 1♠ should be for penalties (although that was true in the early years of bridge - and I may be talking about auction bridge - unfortunately, I lost my authority on the early days of contract bridge a couple of years ago).Hi Timo You don't have to go back as far as the 'early days' to find when doubles of overcalls were played as penalty. The negative double was invented by the Edison of the bridge world, Alvin Roth. I am not sure exactly when he came up with it, and it wasn't as we now use it, but it would probably have been in the late 1950's. Early on they were often referred to as Sputnik doubles....a reference to the Soviet satellite that prompted the US to embark on the race to the moon. I think Sputnik was late 1950s but I'm too lazy to look it up. Ok, maybe that seems like the early days :D I collect bridge books, and generally look only for books published before 1940, so I have a distorted view. I have a 1948 BW in which the nationals in Miami were covered....Roth is identified as a young up and comer, who suggested that maybe an overcall of 2N over 1M should show both minors.....this was the invention of the unusual 2N, and many more inventions were to follow..some of which never caught on (1M 2M was STRONG), some of which had a niche following for years (the R-S sound 1st and 2nd seat opening bids) and some of which are commonplace.....5 card majors, forcing 1N response, negative doubles, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Pardon me for asking, but who is Timo? Yes, even the invention of the negative double was before my time. And it was in the late 50's, hence the name Sputnik. But I do remember at one of my first club games overhearing a player talking about playing in a recently concluded national tournament and saying how he got some good results playing positive doubles. And this was in the early 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Timo Wyman of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Timo Wyman of course , Esquire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am Timo :) Now i know why u wrote "Which team is Timo in" in forums team matches thread Wyman, sorry i thought u were talking about me since Timo is not a very common name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 But I do remember at one of my first club games overhearing a player talking about playing in a recently concluded national tournament and saying how he got some good results playing positive doubles. Still the only permitted method at many rubber bridge clubs. I enjoy playing these methods at duplicate, though most of my partners won't have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyman Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I am Timo :) Now i know why u wrote "Which team is Timo in" in forums team matches thread Wyman, sorry i thought u were talking about me since Timo is not a very common name. heh, no, i was legit asking which team you were on. JLall was just having fun, since 'everyone' around here knows that you are Timo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 heh, no, i was legit asking which team you were on. JLall was just having fun, since 'everyone' around here knows that you are Timo. Man...Justin and his sarcasms...harr harr :angry: :P :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 no, i'm spartacus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 lol, Timo you're crackin me up lately with the sarcasm detection! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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