We screwed this up, decisions analysis needed

[CSGibson]

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj93h6dt5ckjt642&n=sa2ht87432dakcaq3&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1d(could%20be%20short)1hpp2ddp3cppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Agreements: a 1 level advance of an overcall by an unpassed hand would be a 1 round force, 2 level advances are constructive, but non-forcing. This partnership agrees that 2N would not be natural, so that 3C should show extra values, but that agreement was not explicitly discussed in this particular auction, and the partnership often uses 2N as two places to play.

 

I would like to solicit opinions as to realistic alternatives and their relative merits in this auction.

[ggwhiz]

I can see 2nt instead of double (no particular interest in the black suits) and I can see a 2♣ bid over 1♥.

 

I'm on the fence for all of the above and don't think either one of you did anything more than fall off the wrong side.

[inquiry]

Pass after 1♥ seems right, and is what I would have bid, but I don't object to 2♣ as long as it is not forcing, and denies heart support.

 

Over double of 2♦, 2NT as good/bad and a direct 3♣ as showing better than going through 2nt seems right to me (Marshal Miles suggest you reverse the normal meaning of good/bad 2nt, so that good hands go through 2nt, and bad hands are bid directly).

 

The problem, if 3♣ was stronger than 2nt, is north passing. Partner rates to have very heart shortness, so north's hand is gold, but I understand that wasn't the question.

[Flem72]

I keep looking at the N hand, and I just keep thinking it looks like a 1NT overcall. Kind of a mutant, but still in the family.

[Statto]

If 3♣ shows something, and ♣ length, then perhaps North should take further action...

[Codo]

North should have bid 3 NT if he thought that this is a lebensohl situation. And it should be. There are two open suits and the double promised both, so no need for scrambling.

I had not doubled with the north hand, as this had shown a shape between 3616 and 4504, I had rebid 2 hearts- and played there. :(

I had surely not passed with the south hand. a nice 6 card suit and 7 HCPS are enough for 2 ♣. This had taken us to 3 NT, a nice spot.

[Fluffy]

IMO south has a game force, so he should start with 3♦ and bid 4♣ over 3♥, pass 3NT

[whereagles]

Let me play devil's advocate.

 

If South passes 1H, then there should be no game on. Hence 2NT doesn't make much sense as Lebensohl. But how can there be two places to play if spades where bypassed? Well, anyway. I don't think there's any blame here. Both players took reasonable actions that could have worked better on other setups.

[phil_20686]

Let me play devil's advocate.

 

If South passes 1H, then there should be no game on. Hence 2NT doesn't make much sense as Lebensohl. But how can there be two places to play if spades where bypassed? Well, anyway. I don't think there's any blame here. Both players took reasonable actions that could have worked better on other setups.

 

Unfortunately this just isnt true. Often with hands with no support its dangerous to bid 1N on an 8 count, even though you know that partner will sometimes have a 17-18 count for his 1S overcall. In lots of these auctiosn where partner is potentially still very strong its % to pass anyway, even though you can make game opposite 15 counts with a large seconddary fit. Here for example, north could just have AKx Axxxx x Axxx and slam is a favourite, but we are not criticising pass too much.

 

Thus lebensohl still makes sense here, even though it is limted it now needs a good suit, not just HCP. I think lebensohl still makes sense. If you play NFB by a passed hand here that is a perfectly god method, and then 2N just seems impossible. That would have helped you on this hand, but it can hinder on others.

[kayin801]

I posted a hand similar to N's hand a while ago except the major was spades and everyone thought I was crazy for not starting with X. I'm actually pretty sure this one is better than mine so I like X to start. Maybe then it goes, with no opps bidding, 2C-2H-2S-3C-3D-3NT.

[ArtK78]

I posted a hand similar to N's hand a while ago except the major was spades and everyone thought I was crazy for not starting with X. I'm actually pretty sure this one is better than mine so I like X to start. Maybe then it goes, with no opps bidding, 2C-2H-2S-3C-3D-3NT.

I don't remember anything about any previous post, but the idea of doubling and then bidding hearts on this hand makes me ill. A 1NT overcall would be better than doubling and bidding hearts, and I can't see making a 1NT overcall on this hand.

 

1♥ seems right. The rest of the auction is difficult, and stems from the fact that the overcall was made on a strong hand with a weak suit, which often leads to problems.

[nigel_k]

IMO North's actions were fine. Maybe the double is questionable but North is in a tough spot after choosing to overcall 1♥, which I agree with. South needed to do more over the double and visualising some possible North hands would show that game is there quite often and stopping in 4♣ will usually be ok otherwise.

[aguahombre]

a 2C advance of the 1H overcall looks like what the OP describes it would be...constructive but non-forcing. Because South's 3C later must be less than this, it properly ended the auction in North's eyes. However, because 2C would be a borderline decision we would just chalk it up to "oh,well" if we didn't choose 2C and not consider it "screwing up", rather just South choosing the low road.

[HighLow21]

On the auction, South will usually bid 2S over the takeout double of 2D. He doesn't. He bids 3C. This is more than a minimum because it forces the partnership to the 3 level. Meanwhile, the takeout doubler has no values wasted in his original suit (opposite what is sure to be heart shortness), has 1st and 2nd round control of the opener's suit, has AQx support in clubs, and 1st round control of spades.

 

You couldn't design a better fit in a laboratory.

 

It is moot whether takeout doubler should (1) Shoot 3NT or 5C, (2) cue-bid 4D showing slam interest, (3) bid Blackwood asking for aces, with the intention of raising a 5C response to 6C, and either (3a) going 6C over 5D response, or (3b) asking for kings with 5NT or cue-bidding 5S to express grand slam interest in clubs. I realize 3b is extremely aggressive, but there is every reason to believe 7C has a play if partner has the heart ace and club king.

 

Passing 3C is what you would do holding (S) KQx (H) KQxxx (D) xx © A10x. Your hand plays at least 2 tricks better than that in clubs.

[CSGibson]

 

Passing 3C is what you would do holding (S) KQx (H) KQxxx (D) xx © A10x. Your hand plays at least 2 tricks better than that in clubs.

 

But you wouldn't X 2♦ opposite a partner who wasn't able to advance your 1♥ overcall with that pile of crap, so that hand is moot. Partner is showing a top-of-the-range overcall.

 

In my opinion, having read those posts, I like north's auction, and I think South should cue-bid 3♦ (raising 3♠ to 4, passing 3N, and bidding 4♣ over any other action) It probably doesn't get us to the garden spot of 6 clubs, but it certainly gets us to the vulnerable game.

 

Just to clarify, I was south on this auction, and I was not happy with my original pass (though I was even less happy about all other actions), and I was thoroughly aware that partner might not be on the same page as to 3♣ showing extra values. Discussing it with my partner later, he revealed that he was not happy with 1♥ or X, either, but liked them better than all of the other available calls. He was definitely not on the same page as me regarding whether 3♣ directly showed extra values.

[HighLow21]

We're talking about 14 vs. 17 HCP. The hand I mentioned earlier is anything but a pile of crap. It has 14 HCP and 3 quick tricks.

 

Technically he was too strong for 1H overcall originally. Most modern bidders double first anytime they have 17+. Overcaller's actual hand was 17 HCP including no jacks at all, and 3 aces. It is a super-maximum overcall.

 

But given that he has nothing wasted in hearts, given that responder was silent over a minimally-intrusive overcall, given that opener could do nothing over 1H than rebid a suit in which he has no more than 3HCP, all of these factors scream that the overcaller's partner has points. That he didn't support hearts means he has 2 of them at most. Whether he has spades or clubs, the most possible losers outside of trumps (spades or clubs) is 3 and will almost always be fewer than that. (There are actually only 1).

 

Both overcaller and overcaller's responder grossly underbid, but I tend to put more blame on overcaller. There is simply no way he could know he held an uber-prime 17 HCP with NONE of them in hearts, none of them in jacks, and only 2 of them in queens. (The queen being in responder's long suit).

 

Again, I cannot design a better-fitting 17 HCP hand in a lab. There are 22-counts that would have more losers. 3C is a slight underbid, but 1H and especially the pass of 3C are borderline criminal!

[aguahombre]

On the auction, South will usually bid 2S over the takeout double of 2D. He doesn't. He bids 3C. This is more than a minimum because it forces the partnership to the 3 level.

This is only because you are looking at his four spades. His partner doesn't have that same inference.

[HighLow21]

No, what I'm saying is that if partner has a complete bust handhe will tend to bid 2S instead of 3C because he only has to take 8 tricks rather than 9 to fulfill.

[aguahombre]

oh, O.K., he will opt to play a 3-3 fit one level lower than the six-three or six-four after the double of 2D with, say, JTX X Txx KJXXXX.

[HighLow21]

Yes, he might, especially given that the TO double distorts your shape. It suggests at least 6 cards in the unbid suits.

 

Also, he would never respond 2S with that specific hand. He might though if he held (S) Jxxx (H) 10 (D) 9x © 10xxxxx.

[wank]

highlow i'm afraid you're rather mistaken.

 

if advancer has significantly more clubs than spades in a weak hand he'll choose to play in clubs, despite requiring an extra trick (on this auction he will often be 6-2 or 6-3 in the blacks). as such 'forcing to the 3-level' doesn't show any extra values in itself, though if they're playing lebensohl here then fine they have 2 ways to show clubs.

 

anyway, returning to the land of common sense, i agree that this hand is strong enough to cue, lebensohl or no lebensohl.

[Statto]

highlow i'm afraid you're rather mistaken.

What both of you say is true :)

[HighLow21]

When I typed the example hand earlier I meant to include 1 fewer clubs and 1 more diamond.

[the hog]

Yes, he might, especially given that the TO double distorts your shape. It suggests at least 6 cards in the unbid suits.

 

Also, he would never respond 2S with that specific hand. He might though if he held (S) Jxxx (H) 10 (D) 9x © 10xxxxx.

 

Sorry, but it is nonsense to say that the 3 club bid shows extra values because it forces to the 3 level.

It is also incorrect to say that "Technically he was too strong for 1H overcall originally. Most modern bidders double first anytime they have 17+. Overcaller's actual hand was 17 HCP including no jacks at all, and 3 aces. It is a super-maximum overcall.".

If anything, the range for an overcall has increased. It is not surprising to see overcalls on 18 counts or so.

[Statto]

Sorry, but it is nonsense to say that the 3 club bid shows extra values because it forces to the 3 level.

Not at all. If you are weak with a 3 card ♠ suit and a 4 card ♣ suit and can't stand the double then you might choose 2♠ rather than 3♣.

 

And by inference that means 3♣ shows something better than nothing, even if that something extra is a 5th ♣ in a Yarborough.

 

[Edited to add final sentence]

Edited February 1, 2012 by Statto